The Truth is not an ORG.....It's inside of you

by tor1500 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe
    what about, do to others as you would have them do to you....meaning, BE NICE, because you'd want someone to be nice to you...That to me is the meat and potatoes of the bible...Don't do to others what you don't want done to you....Most of the bible are just stories...true or false, who knows & who cares...but it's how we treat one another that really counts.

    Tor, please google the Golden Rule, which is what you're talking about above. Confucius, Plato, Buddha and others were talking about this principle five hundred years before Jesus. None of them claimed to be the son of God.

    It was an amazing breakthrough for humanity, this cannot be denied. Tribalism meant that people looked after their own family and tribe, for the sake of survival. The idea of treating slaves, foreigners, enemy nations with justice was a ground breaking idea, no argument there. The point is Jesus did not say it first, he was 500 years late. Don't take my word for it, check it.

  • fukitol
    fukitol

    Yes, it is indeed 'inside' you, but that's got nothing to do with the Bible. Quite the contrary.

    The Bible often perverts what one's natural conscience and heart tells them is right versus wrong. Example, we naturally feel love for our relatives and want to talk to them, but the Watchtower says the Bible forbids talking to them if they leave the organisation. Example, a parent would never, ever, naturally make a decision that could result in the death of their child, yet the Watchtower preaches that the Bible says God requires that the parents must forbid a life-saving blood transfusion for their child. And there are many other examples of how the Bible actually corrupts and perverts one's natural moral sense of right and wrong.

    People know what is right from wrong without a so-called 'holy' ancient book to tell them. Look at the Muslim militants totally ignoring their natural sense of moral right from wrong and beheading people and blowing themselves to kill others, all in the name of religion and their 'holy' book?

    Even the Apostle Paul admitted in Romans 2 that people of the nations naturally distinguish right from wrong from the law that is written in the heart and conscience.

    In order to understand this, you need to understand what the Bible really is: mostly a book of interesting Jewish historical records overlaid with fables and priestcraft.

    Every single 'miracle' in the Bible is complete fiction, a mere fable. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you will be free.

  • Half banana
    Half banana

    Hi Tor, thank you for expressing your thoughts on the Bible and its value as a mirror for our behaviour.

    As JWs we felt disloyal to stray from this viewpoint but now as free moral agents we can look back and begin to see many absurdities in the Bible.

    One particularly harmful instruction is; "You must be perfect". Listening to advice like this as if from God, could send a person eventually into a mental institution.

    We now have universal education and internet information. These enable people to be informed and apply a logical analysis instead of the extremely limited thinking encouraged by Bible indoctrination.

  • tor1500
    tor1500

    Hi Fukitol,

    I agree to some extent "one's natural conscience and heart tells them is right versus wrong"...let me give you a little example of one's natural conscience which can be molded by one environment. I once was walking down the street & heard this Father tell his son...Son, now that's how you shoot a gun, the son was no older than 6 or 7 yrs. old. The son said, thanks dad. Then the father says, next I'll show you how to use a glock gun, son says, cool dad & so if someone gets me angry I can shoot them, dad says, that's right son, dad what about Sean, he gets me mad sometimes, I can shoot him. Dad say, No son, that's your brother. Now imagine growing up like that from a youth? That son's natural conscience is being trained not for good but for bad, & he may never know the difference because how he was raised.

    I get where you are coming from, but not everyone comes from a loving, nurturing household...how do you show those qualities ? Many of you have been in the hall. Love is not natural for most witnesses. Some parents just raise their kids, no love no nurturing, because maybe they didn't have it either, so that trait passes on. So some go to church/hall or wherever & see some type of love & learn some type of love from the bible. The problem is not the bible, the problem is people who interpret the bible....Many on here say the WT says this the WT says that..but what did the bible say ?

    I think many came to the org, looking for the loving parent they never had, & halls/churches provide some of that love. It starts from home. Why do we listen to man ? The bible says nothing about shunning, quitting your job to full time ministry, or rely on the congregation to support you, not to smoke not to drink, walk this way, talk this way, no short skirts & on & on...that's man interpretation of what they want, not what God wants. The OT, lots of killing & stuff, just so Jesus could make it thru the line of David. Now the NT, it's a love story....Jesus didn't do nothing, never gave a whole lot of rules, but his Dad/God did.

    I get what everyone is saying, the bible could or could not be true, but it's man that messes up the message. Even it there isn't any God/Jesus, The Bible, wouldn't you like looking back on your life & you were a good person...

    I became a witness because I liked what I was learning, even though I knew how to treat folks before I got there...I had good parents. I didn't have to join the org. to be patted on my back or look approval from man. To be honest the truth led me to the truth...& found out what man says, God never even thought it...We as humans can't be nice to one another so it's easier to set rules.

    Example, many of the friends says that they can't even get a ride to and from places. But guess what ? Those same folks who don't give rides to people, will come to the hall, & put their slip in for AUX. Pioneering, HUH? So adding more hours to yourself is easier than giving someone a lift....No, it's not but that's how mean spirited some are.

    For most witnesses they need to be witnesses it's the only power or recognition they have & they have gone too far. Most of them needs validation that they didn't get from home. They need to be seen, haven't figured out what gene that is LOL.

    So I get what all of you are saying...Don't be mad at God....if you still believe but be angry with the org, & maybe a little at yourself, but forgive yourself for just not knowing. We know it's not right to shun or for families to be at odds with one another....No org., has the right....I read somewhere...folks can't drive you crazy if you don't give them the keys.

    Some have to admit they loved being a witness and wore it as a badge of honor. In this life your family and friends are your support system. If a family member only wants to be with you because you are a witness but won't if you don't....What's that telling you ? I know it's hard when it comes to family to be shunned or ignored...but I think some folks would be that way even if they were even if they weren't in the org. The org. just gave them an excuse to be that way. Just like some never wanted to work, so, when they heard full time pioneer & God will help & so will your bros.& sis....that was music to their ears...they never wanted to work in the first place...We can't blame the org. for certain things nor can we blame the bible for some natural bad ways.

    Again, I get what all of you are saying & I agree with some & not with others...I'm not against anyone here. I don't drink the kool-aide..because I know better.

    So my original topic....You can't find truth no where but in yourself....Even if it hurts & you need to change.

    Tor

  • SonoftheTrinity
    SonoftheTrinity
    Juandelfiero that's why the mystics all see all religions as one, while findamentalists see their religion as the only true one,
  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe
    I get what everyone is saying, the bible could or could not be true, but it's man that messes up the message. Even it there isn't any God/Jesus, The Bible, wouldn't you like looking back on your life & you were a good person...
    I get what you're saying too Tor, I really do. Living ethically and treating others well is very important to me. I just don't want to look back at my life and see I lived by someone else's rules. Whether dreamt up by a religion, or anyone else. It is possible to decide how to be a good person you know. You ignored my post that showed humans have been trying to work out how to be a good person since 500 BC. That's up to you.
  • tor1500
    tor1500

    Hi Xanthippe,

    I agree with you 100%...I did look up what you said..sorry for not getting back to you about that...My apologies...You are right...As they say nothing is new under the sun....I think by nature we are kind of self-centered....I'm an only child, I had to learn to share & learn that there are other people in the world besides me...because at home....I was the center of the world...Many of our behavior is from our environment or how we are raised. For example, you don't have to teach a child to lie, but how not to lie. If they see their parents or whomever act a certain way, not all but most of the time, the child(s) mimic's that....I've met many users in my life, the longer I know them the longer I notice so where their parents. Once I met a sister that told me she didn't want to be like her MOM, folks always took advantage of her. So this sister has a bit of an edge to her, it's a protection. Many people put up walls of protection from others. So they don't know how to be treated nor how to treat others with or without kindness.

    If you were not treated well at home or were surrounded by nice people, you don't have any experience with knowing how to love or be nice or treat others well. Yes, you can decide to be a nice person, but first you must recognize that you are not & would like to be. Many go to church to learn....I still believe churches/halls or any place of worship is a rehab for the mean folks...because I tell you I've met the most meanest folks in places of worship, so I get what you mean about religion...Someone on this site once said, some Christians are more religious than spiritual.

    Ever run across folks that say, they don't like people all that much...My reply is....So what are you? Don't you know I hear crickets...

    I understand what you mean by living by someone else's rules & that's why I come to this site, to make sure I'm still sane....I like the friends a lot....but I know I don't fit in, so we shall see.

    All in all I think or should I say hope we are on the same page. I'm not a debater, I like to look at all sides & I will keep what you say in mind....That Kindness is not a new thing....& religion didn't event it...

    You know why sometimes I have my doubts about the Bible...it's when they say so & so wrote this book & then at the end of the book, the character dies but the story goes on...how can one write about their death...I think the folks they say wrote different books in bible...I don't believe they know. Someone also said, how come Jesus never wrote...I say...UMMMMM..

    I will do a little more research on folks trying to work out to be a good person since 550 BC...Food for thought.

    Thanks for replying....

    Tor

  • Xanthippe
    Xanthippe

    Thanks for replying Tor. I'm not a debater either. I see you reaching out for reality and I want to help, that's all. I agree we are mainly on the same page. A year after I left the religion I did an IT course at a college and I remember the tutor listening to my story and she said she thought I needed more education. I was a little insulted. It's not an easy thing to hear is it? Now I think she saw that I was intelligent but because of that religion forbidding education she just thought I didn't know enough. She was right. I hope you get somewhere with your research. This link might help.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

  • JW_Rogue
    JW_Rogue
    "What is truth?" - Pontius Pilate
  • tor1500
    tor1500

    Hi Xanthippe,

    I read your link...amazing...My mother said, there is truly nothing new under the sun & she is correct. It was a very very interesting link...thanks...I don't mind when someone tells me that I need to do more research. I'm not too easily offended. We learn something new everyday until the day we die. We must admit we don't know all & that everything in life isn't explained....

    I no longer look for reality, I'm close to 65 so I've been around the block & religion is just what it is...In the south churches is a social setting for socializing & worshipping. When you live in the south, if you're not going to a church or to a church function then you really haven't much to do. By the way I don't live in the south. Religion or should I say the folks in religion try to dictate what you should do.

    What I'm thinking that if church/JW's are so bad, just think how bad they would be if they didn't go...Yikes.

    The Truth is inside of me....I know that...What my original topic was that the truth is not in the org, church, etc but inside of you to find...I didn't mean that religion was where you can find it....for some it exposes who they really are. There are some good examples in the NT of how humans should treat one another or how our attitudes are..I always love the account where A man is forgiven for his debts, yet he doesn't forgive someone who owes him...I think we can all identify with that story...Haven't at one time or another been forgiven, but won't forgive someone in return? Haven't we all seen someone sick or hurt and know we should help (Good Samaritan)....It's about morals...I know the bible is not the only place to go.

    I'm glad you sent me the link, more for me to know & they don't....

    Because of my age, I'm finally comfortable with myself, I'm not here anymore to please man or care what they think. I think that's why in my congregation, they don't really bother me. I'm my own person, but this web site keeps me sane until I have the courage to leave...

    Tor

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