Introduction - Any Believers? (page 17)

OutsiderLookingIn

Thanks for that clarification. I wasn't familiar because it doesn't say rape; it says the soldiers could take these women as wives after a battle (Deuteronomy 21). To be honest, I'm not sure how to tell the difference in a non-romantic relationship. The Bible doesn't go into the marriage proposal or waiting period except, off the top of my head, with Rebekah, Ruth, Abigail and Mary. Beyond allowing a month to grieve (more time than Rebekah or Abigail had), the bigger picture was God providing a protection to captive women so that they wouldn't be used and discarded. If she didn't please him (the very common, flimsy reason men gave for divorce), he had to set her free and not sell her into slavery or mistreat her.

I guess either way it would be problematic--killing everyone would be genocide and keeping some alive was rape. What would the third alternative have been? The Bible is not pacifist--God has recognized that on this earth there is a time for war and a time for peace. The New Testament limits this more to spiritual warfare and peace with God, but does not condemn military service either. As for kidnapping, the only instance I'm aware of was not prompted by God, but Israel's *brilliant* plan to keep their rash oath not to give their daughters to the men of Benjamin in marriage (Judges 21).

In any case, I'm not God, nor do I claim to understand everything completely. You call it red herrings; I call it context and wouldn't use them to justify selfish motives or mistreatment of others. You reach the conclusions you reach and I do the same. That is the freedom I value and I believe you do as well.

cofty

I call it context

So in your world there are circumstances in which it is a perfect act of love to commit genocide, take slaves as inheritable possessions, beat them to death, kidnap virgins and rape them (the high priest got 23 all to himself) and hack thousands of babies to death in cold blood.

To be honest, I'm not sure how to tell the difference in a non-romantic relationship.

I know how to tell the difference. Murdering an entire nation, kidnapping the virgins and raping them is bad. It is always bad. There is NEVER a situation when it isn't bad. You might want to write that down in case you are ever confused in the future.

Why do christians turn into moral imbeciles when they are faced with the worst sort of behaviour imaginable? When ISIS do these same things you would not hesitate to condemn it. When Jesus does it it's all about "context".

cofty

killing everyone would be genocide and keeping some alive was rape. What would the third alternative have been?

Oh I think I know that answer to that too!

DON'T FUCKING MURDER EVERYBODY!

OutsiderLookingIn

Well then, you have it all figured it out, Cofty. I'm not becoming a moral imbecile, just saying that the arrogance of modernity is knowing what was best for worlds apart and miles away because it's soooo obvious. I was at the Getty Villa the other day seeing artifacts from antiquity and even the signage noted that warfare was a part of life. They went out every year to gain or defend territory; it was thing to do. And when it wasn't war, it was warlike sport. Yet we can sit in some of the most stable times in the relative comfort of our homes and say shoulda, woulda, coulda.

There is a difference between killing and murder, the latter being done with malice aforethought (premeditation). Murder is wrong, while killing may occur in a time of war. Once more, the New Testament puts forth a different mechanism with the same goal to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. It is no longer about protecting land borders but being equipped for spiritual warfare. Jesus did understand context and could interpret the spirit of the law which was mercy, justice and doing the will of the Father.

I'm not trying to change your mind and you won't change mine so we can continue on but at the end of the day, it is what it is. To each his own.

cofty

just saying that the arrogance of modernity is knowing what was best for worlds apart and miles away because it's soooo obvious.

Yes it is blatantly obvious to the rest of us that it is bad to commit genocide, take slaves as inheritable possessions, beat them to death, kidnap virgins and rape them and hack thousands of babies to death in cold blood.

You are deliberately ignoring the main point.

I am not judging Israel.

I am judging your god who claims to be eternally good.

Your god commanded these things to be done. Therefore you have to agree one of two things..

Either there are circumstances in which it is a perfect act of love to commit genocide, take slaves as inheritable possessions, beat them to death, kidnap virgins and rape them and hack thousands of babies to death in cold blood.

Or

Your version of god is contradictory. I am judging god by his own declared standards. You can't have it both ways.

konceptual99

I checked out what the WT has said about voting. In the last article on the subject in 1999 it says (in part):

A third factor to consider is that those who have a part in voting a person into office may become responsible for what he does. (Compare 1 Timothy 5:22, The New English Bible.) Christians have to consider carefully whether they want to shoulder that responsibility.

Surely the same principle applies to Christians regarding their endorsement of God and what he has done and will do.

Witness My Fury

That is such a weak argument to use it smacks of desperation.

Giles Gray

OLI-In any case, I'm not God, nor do I claim to understand everything completely.

How is it that when there is something negative about god in the bible, believers don't claim to understand everything...

But they never question the positive portions about god but take them at face value?

Only slightly one sided...?

OutsiderLookingIn

Giles Gray, why is "I don't understand everything" the mark of enlightenment for exJWs and non-believers but irrefutable evidence that believers are irrational?

I don't even have to go back to ancient Israel to admit I don't understand everything--I can say that about my own life right here and right now. I have shared my reasons for first investigating JWs and with some I have shared a little more. Why did I, a never JW, have to be exposed to this JW nonsense by falling in love? And at a time in my life when I was seeking God more than I ever had before. This on top of regular life, which even outside the Watchtower is not a Shangri-La. Maybe it's my "calling". Maybe it's just a test. I don't know.

But I believe. Why do believers take the goodness of God at face value? Speaking for myself, I believe that God's ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts higher than my thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9). I also believe that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). It doesn't say all things are good or that I will understand it all, but it will work out. How did God get Joseph to Egypt to govern in the time of famine? His own brothers sold him into slavery, he was lied on and thrown in jail then forgotten for another two years after I'm sure he thought the release papers were coming. All good things, right? But Joseph recognized that what was intended for evil, God meant it for good (Genesis 50:20).

So I guess that's my choice. But in doing so, I don't put my life on hold. I choose belief and you don't. What I attribute to God in His infinite wisdom, you attribute to the universe. Different strokes for different folks. People have their reasons and their paths.

From my first post onward, I never tried to convince or convert anyone. You asked me questions and I answered according to my understanding--which is what I was expressing in the first place. If your challenge isn't with me, but with my God, then I certainly won't be able to answer that.

cofty

I believe that God's ways are higher than my ways and His thoughts higher than my thoughts - OLI

So you are asserting that advocating slavery, kidnap/rape, and murdering babies is the work of a mind that is "higher" than mine.

It is incredible the lengths christians will go to to defend the indefensible.

When ISIS murder non Muslims and take sex slaves in the name of Allah you have no hesitation in condemning their actions as thoroughly evil. When Jesus tells his soldiers to do the same in the OT you have no hesitation in justifying it.

Outright hypocrisy!

Introduction - Any Believers?

Share this