by AndersonsInfo 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I do believe in freedom, so in the context of US or UK common law, this would obviously never fly. But note that the EU, Australia and Canada does not enjoin the US or UK in the right to freedom of speech.
They have put the right to not be offended above the right to religious freedom. This is a choice voters made.
“inciting discrimination and hatred or violence against former members" is protected speech in the US, not in the EU, WTBTS has to comply or lobby to have US-style freedom of speech.
Everyone has a choice whether to shun someone or not. The WTS only has the power over you that you give it. The WTS can't shun you - how many people have daily dealings with the WTS really? Do you go for coffee with the governing body? Of course not.
The people who decide to shun you based on what the WTS beliefs are - they are the ones that shun you, and that is their decision. Every decision people make is based on some external influences. You think you can legislate life to that degree?
There is no "simple" law to just make it illegal. Seriously, try coming up with the law and it'll be easy to demonstrate ways it can be bypassed or misused.
Jehovah's witnesses do not have a choice.
You won't convince me otherwise.
Are you still a Jehovahs Witness then? No? How come? How is that possible? Oh, right ... because you did have a choice.
Everyone always has a choice. Choices almost always have consequences. Just because some can't face the consequences of a choice doesn't mean they don't have one.
This is the very important bit:
When you repeat the claim that JWs don't have a choice, you do the WatchTowers bidding.
The WTS would love JWs to believe they don't have a choice other than to do as they are told.
But of course it's wrong.
For the JWs who are evil cunts that prefer to follow the teachings of some old farts an ocean away, the idea that it's not them doing it is a pure, 100%, easy-peasy get-out. "I have to shun you, too bad, so sad!".
But the reality is that they too have a choice, and any shunning that THEY do is on THEM.
This is what the message should be - hang a big "unloving, uncaring, grade A cunt" sign in anyone who shuns anyone they claimed to be their family or friends just the day before, all because they lack the moral fortitude or mental capability to come to a better choice.
Really, "we have no choice" is up there with "the devil made me do it" when it comes to lame excuses for bad behavior.
From the article...
Said their [JW] attorney: “It’s not up to the court to hand down a decision about interpersonal relationships.
Yet that is exactly what the Watchtower Organization itself does. Disfellowshipping, and the shunning that follows, is an organizational policy that prohibits interpersonal relationships. This is another case of the pot (Watchtower) calling the kettle (the court or anyone else) black.
How do you legislate against it? That is a tough one. You can have hate laws, but keeping them enforced completely would be virtually impossible ... especially where religion is involved.
I do believe the Ghent court's decision is a step in the right direction even if it can't be completely enforced.
@ScenicViewer: Europe has hate speech laws, this is exactly what they’ve been convicted of violating.
Nobody is making anyone associate with someone else against their will. You (currently) still have the right to shun, you just can’t say that other people are evil.
I don’t think hate speech laws are good, because they limit speech, and will be abused, but the EU has them because they don’t guarantee free speech or freedom of religion.
Anony Mous:
You (currently) still have the right to shun, you just can’t say that other people are evil.
Yes, that was exactly my point. I am also aware of hate speech laws, it's just it's very hard to enforce them 100%, especially in a religious setting.
They absolutely have a choice. You rob JWs of their moral agency this way. Simon is exactly correct here. Think of the long term consequences of undermining these principles.
IMHO hate speech laws are just speech laws - who gets to determine how "hate speech" is defined legally?
Si The WTS would love JWs to believe they don't have a choice other than to do as they are told.
But of course it's wrong.
Oh definitely they would. And we all know witnesses who despite everything don't shun their family.
And that's when it gets really difficult. That's when I personally get angry with the shunners.
MMM They absolutely have a choice. You rob JWs of their moral agency this way. Simon is exactly correct here. Think of the long term consequences of undermining these principles.
I have to say you make a very good point
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't really free self-determined agents. The very threat of disfellowshipping made to those who refuse to shun precludes that. Want to test it? Remove the mechanisms and threats of retaliation. Let's see how many keep on shunning of their own determination. And then we can start a conversation about the "right to shun".
