Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

by Disillusioned JW 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Disillusioned JW

  Abraham1 I notice that you refer to John Hogue as a secular person, but moments ago I visited his website using the link you provided. I discovered that though he might not be a Bible believer and might not be religious he apparently believes in the prophecies of the astrologer named Nostradamus. Notice that Hogue's website lists prophetic books by him which have the name Nostradamus included in the title. On the page you directed us to Hogue says the following. 'Beginning in 2020 a great cycle of ages ends in what the prophet Nostradamus called the “unraveling of the world of people and animals.” '

  Hogue might even consider himself a mystic and or psychic and he says "... my teacher Osho foresaw our 21st-century crisis..." Pictured above that quote is a photo of someone who looks like a swami. Hogue's page at http://www.hogueprophecy.com/john-hogues-worldwide-astrological-predictions-for-2016/ promotes a book of his called "John Hogue’s Worldwide Astrological Predictions for the Real New Year". He thus believes in astrology. On that page Hogue says the following regarding himself (speaking in the third person). "He will apply his 30 years experience of studying the astrology and medium work of Nostradamus to document highly accurate astrological forecasts—saddled to pure divination—that confounds astrologically dogmatic critics as it accurately illuminates." See also his biography at http://www.hogueprophecy.com/biography/ .
  

  Abraham1, do you believe in astrology - even to the point of believing in the predictions of astrology? Do you believe in spirit mediums and divination, including believing that they make accurate predictions and that is OK for believers in Jesus Christ to make use of such?

  At the http://www.hogueprophecy.com/predictions-2016-the-expanded-donors-only-edition/ Hogue says his book called The 2020s: Decade of Destruction and Transformation, in Part One of the book, includes the following themes.

  - "THE ZOMBIE PROPHECIES: Before Consciousness can Blossom first Encounter Why we have a Deep and Sincere Fascination with Zombie Movies and Myths–They Are Real!"

  - 'THE BOOK OF “WRONG” REVELATION: A Psychotic Prophecy Misread for 2,000 Years has Found the Decade that can Fulfill It’s Projected patently False Nightmares'
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  punkofnice

  Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?

  I shouldn't think so. It's all subjective with different Christian denominations disagreeing and foisting their own view on it.
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  riblah

  😴💤
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  lastmanstanding

  Vander

  • Yes, verses 29-31 are impossible to attach to the first century destruction of Jerusalem. With good reason, that was Jesus describing His coming at Armageddon.
  • And with that description, He finished answering the second question.
  • In verse 32, Jesus began a juxtaposition. He compared the end of Jerusalem with the coming of the Son of Man.
  • About the fall of Jerusalem, Jesus went on to say...

  32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door [OF JERUSALEM]. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation [HIS OWN GENERATION] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. [TO JERUSALEM] 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

  • And then He spoke to the coming of the Son of Man,

  36 “But about that day or hour [ ARMAGEDDON ] no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
  

  Quite simple actually. About Jerusalem's destruction they were given a sign, for they had to take action, flight from Jerusalem.

  In contrast, there will be NO WARNING of His second coming.
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Lastmanstanding

  OK, as I see it; immediately after the tribulation which Christians fled to the mountains to escape, horror was coming on Jerusalem. For brevity sake, let's deal with verses 29-31, one verse at a time.

  The words are proverbial. Vultures and eagles ascertain where the
  dead body is and come around it to devour. A picture of the
  Roman army, Jerusalem resembling the dead corpse Hos.8:1
  Hab.1:8 The Jewish nation was morally, spiritually, and judicially
  dead. Jerusalem was like a dead putrid corpse once Jesus had
  pronounced the death sentence Mat 23:38 "Your house is left to
  you desolate.." For implies a reason for what is said and attests to
  the certainty that the Son of man would come to destroy the city.

  29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
  DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
  NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
  FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
  SHALL BE SHAKEN:

  Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
  the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
  by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
  tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
  Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
  God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
  His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
  Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
  shine for Israel of the flesh.

  WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
  find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
  Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.

  Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
  "Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
  and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
  sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
  constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
  darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
  to shine.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
  insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
  language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
  Israel?

  Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
  incorporates similar vivid language.
  "Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
  Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and I
  will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
  cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
  lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
  upon thy land, saith the Lord God.

  If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
  figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
  like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
  describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
  Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64

  Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
  And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
  and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
  and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
  of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
  place of the sanctuary cast down. (See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64
  Mat.16:28)
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  lastmanstanding

  Vander;

  So then, according to what you write, Jesus already came, with the angels, gathered the faithful, and we are just waiting for what… the Earth to be burnt,,,,

  I am not ‘assuming’ something about “vivid language”. I am following a logical progression in Jesus’ discourse.

  What you wrote is the foundation of Preterism, and it is rejected by the other half of searchers precisely because it relegates faith of present Christianity to the scrap heap… because we missed the boat.

  At Mt 24:5 Jesus warns his disciples that false Christs will come. He is not repeating Himself about the same event at verse 23. Rather He begins the warning concerning the Last Days before His second coming with a similar warning about false Christs.

  He changed topic, and this is what is missed by modern searchers. And as such, modern searchers apply things that deal with His second coming to Jerusalem. What confusion,
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  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Lastmanstanding,

  I Am not Preterist. The second coming of Christ (parousia) is still future. Jesus, in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Like 21 separates the Judgment on Jerusalem and the Judgment on the world in the text. The first judgment was to be anticipated, one could run to the hills to avoid it; prayer could help mitigate the flight, it would be local to Jerusalem and Judea, it would involve days of divine vengeance, followed by the destruction of the temple and the dispersion of surviving Jews, but all would be fulfilled in Christ's generation.

  The opposite is true of the second coming, verses 35 to the end concerning world judgment at the parousia. That single day could not be expected, it would be a surprise like in Noah’s day, no one could run from it, it would be worldwide
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  lastmanstanding

  Vander.

  You avoided any mention of what I wrote, except to say you are not a Preterist.

  That is illogical.

  Now, you wrote above that "will never happen again" means a "one time event". That is logical.

  I know, I wrote it.

  I am not quoting it as are you. I know when I hear my own work that I have posted on many other sites over the years.

  Jesus was very logical, and His logic is found in no better exchange than the one he had with the Jewish religious leaders that said He had a demon and that's how he did miracles. Jesus' logic is impeccable, how can Satan expel Satan, and how did the Jewish religious leaders do their miracles...

  Logic.

  To say...

  "27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

  ... is something that happened in relation to the first century is illogical, nonsense.
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  Vanderhoven7

  @Lastmanstanding

  I agree it would be illogical to say that in verse 27 Jesus was talking about something that would happen in the first century. The parousia is a future event not associated with the destruction of Jerusalem. Let me paraphrase what I believe Jesus was saying here.

  "Look guys these will be terrible times during the seige. People will say Christ is secretly present, here on earth to deliver us. Don't believe them. Don't confuse the destruction of Jerusalem with my second coming. For my parousia or personal second coming to earth will be a worldwide event that will be a snare to all living on earth. There will no secret presence involved in that day."

  In other words Jesus interjected this comment about his second coming to earth at the end of time to distinguish it from the tribulation that would break out on Jerusalem.

  Now you don't have to see it this way but I believe Jesus was clarifying what would and what wouldn't happen during the tribulation that was to come upon his own generation.

  23 ¶Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

  24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

  25Behold, I have told you before.

  26¶Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

  27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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  Abraham1

  Disillusioned JW,

  "When apostle Paul wrote: "It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife," (1 Corinthians 5:1) he was not approving what Gentiles do.Similarly, I was only contracting saying "If secular people (whether believers in astrology or not) could alert the world about "Great Tribulation" even four years it actually began, how much more JWs could have done if they were really linked to God.