Aren`t believers in the Bible as Gods word, today on this forum , doing what the WT/JW religion have been doing for the past 145 years or so looking for signs ?
What did Jesus say ?
You know your bible, you know what he says.!
Is Bible prophecy now starting to come true regarding the prelude to the great tribulation?
by Disillusioned JW 63 Replies latest watchtower bible
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punkofnice
doing what the WT/JW religion have been doing for the past 145 years or so looking for signs ?
It seems 'believers' look for signs in their own lifetime and have done for 100s of years.
that was me once.
Nothing has happened...and I don't believe for one moment it ever will.
It's smacks of desperation that some bigger force will make your life better.
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Abraham1
Vanderhoven,
You said “No one will be able to anticipate the timing; it will take place in normal times, with people working at their jobs, marrying and being given in marriage; it will be a total surprise, an event one should be ready for at all times...precisely because there will be no signs of his second coming (parousia).”
You have ignored description of “Last Days” in Luke which is truer than that of Mathew because Luke compared all available manuscripts and took only what is true. (Luke 1:1-3) After describing all the global signs such as pandemics, world wars, sea-level rise, Jesus said: “People will faint from terror [thus they are not taken by surprise], apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.” (Luke 21:26-31)
Noticeable thing is that Luke removed Jesus’ supposed comparing the situation with that of Noah’s time. This is because Jesus never mentioned about Noah’s destruction as it has never happened (compare Mathew 13:24-30) After saying “mankind was made in the image of God” (Genesis 5:1) we find in the very next chapter God repenting about His creating mankind on earth because they have become wicked from their very core, hence HE supposedly wiped that generation (Genesis chapter 6). This is unlikely to happen, and Noah’s Flood is a cooked up story, adopted from other cultures and was put in wrong place. This explains why OT prophets are not aware of such global flood that destroyed mankind except one family.
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lastmanstanding
Vander.
You are just jumping around and making it up. Still too much Watchtology in your thesis.
And in doing so, you give fodder to them who make fun of believers
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Jehalapeno
Only in California.
We're perfectly fine in Florida.
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Vanderhoven7
Lastmanstanding,
Actually I give no fodder to the Watchtower on this subject. From my perspective, the signs or the composite sign as Watchtowerites like to say, does not apply to the second coming but to His coming in judgment on Jerusalem in century one.
The thesis I hold did not originate with me. I owe my understanding of Matthew 24 to Marcellus Kik's work entitled, Matthew 24.
Verses 1-35 outlining what would and wouldn't happen to Jerusalem in the first century and verses 36 - end describing what would happen at his second advent.
The disciples no doubt confused the destruction of the temple with the final judgment. Jesus clarified or distinguish the two events quite clearly i.e., what would happen to his generation and what would transpire at the end of world.
Why do you think my understanding is cause for concern?
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lastmanstanding
Vander
Just to be clear, you are advocating that the below took place in the first century and is connected to Jerusalem. Good luck with that.
If you can’t see a “cause for concern” with that bunch of nonsense, then there’s no point talking.
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
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Vanderhoven7
@Lastmanstanding
Relying on Kik and others here:
30. AND THEN SHALL APPEAR THE SIGN OF THE SON OF
MAN IN HEAVEN: AND THEN SHALL ALL THE TRIBES
OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON
OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH
POWER AND GREAT GLORY.Note that it is "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven", not the Son
of man visiting the earth. At the destruction of Jerusalem, the sign
or precursor to His coming to destroy was found in the fulfillment
of these predicted calamities and finally the surrounding of
Jerusalem by the Roman armies. Of course as these calamities and
ultimate destruction, befell them, the tribes would mourn. The
Jews were eventually left without temple, city, sacrifice or
priesthood as was prophesied by Daniel.AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN
THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN WITH POWER AND GREAT
GLORY.Does the phrase "coming (not parousia) in the clouds"
necessarily refer to a personal coming to earth? We should not
read that thought into the text. Is. 19:1 states "See the Lord rides
on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt
shall be moved at His presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in
the midst of it" Although this verse speaks of the Lord riding on a
cloud and of His presence, we know that the Egyptians did not see
the Lord in a personal and visible way. The expression is rather
used to indicate a coming in judgment against Egypt. Jesus
coming in the clouds against Israel thus refers to a similar kind of
judgment.The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
They were to see the Lord Jesus coming to judgment with power.
This power was manifest in the destruction. The word glory refers
to the visible display of his honor, power and majesty.That Jesus destroyed the city in 70 AD is accurate. As Daniel 9:27
reveals; because of the over spreading of abominations, he, the
Lord and Messiah himself would make it desolate. Titus was
merely his instrument.31. AND HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS WITH A GREAT
SOUND OF A TRUMPET, AND THEY SHALL GATHER
TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, FROM
ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. Mi.1:1-3The trumpet represents a proclamation. In this case it is the
gospel. The term angelos is frequently used in the New Testament
to refer to earthly messengers (i.e. the followers of Christ)
Lu.7:24, 9:32, Mk.1:2 II Cor. 8:33 They carry the gospel
message and gather the elect into the kingdom throughout the
earth (from one end of heaven to the other).
32. NOW LEARN A PARABLE OF THE FIG TREE; WHEN
HIS BRANCH IS YET TENDER, AND PUTTETH FORTH
LEAVES, YE KNOW THAT SUMMER IS NIGH: 33. SO LIKEWISEYE, WHEN YE SHALL SEE THESE THINGS, KNOW THAT IT IS
NEAR, EVEN AT THE DOORS.
The Christians Christ addressed were to KNOW the time of
Jerusalem's destruction; so they could take immediate flight to the
mountains. They knew that the Abomination of desolation
referred to the surrounding gentile armies that would make
Jerusalem a desolation (compare Mat.24: 15, 16 with Luke 21:21-
24). That was the cue/sign. And that is why no Christian perished
in the destruction!34. VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL
NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
(23:38)There would be a complete fulfillment of every detail of this
prophecy to the generation to which Christ referred.35. HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY, BUT MY WORDS SHALL NOT PASS AWAY.
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lastmanstanding
Vander,
A load of nonsense.
BTW...
The clouds of heaven obscure or shut heaven from man's view.
Watchtology... (like I said.) -
Vanderhoven7
Here is what Adam Clarke has to say in his commentary on Matthew 24:29-31
Verse 29
Verse 29. Immediately after the tribulation, c.] Commentators generally understand this, and what follows, of the end of the world and Christ's coming to judgment: but the word immediately shows that our Lord is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent on calamities already predicted: and that must be the destruction of Jerusalem. "The Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened-brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the Church the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both. Compare Isaiah 13:10; Ezekiel 32:7-8, c." Lightfoot.
In the prophetic language, great commotions upon earth are often represented under the notion of commotions and changes in the heavens:-
The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darkened. See Isaiah 13:9-10.
The destruction of Egypt, by the heaven being covered, the sun enveloped with a cloud, and the moon withholding her light. Ezekiel 32:7-8.
The destruction of the Jews by Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by casting down some of the host of heaven, and the stars to the ground. See Daniel 8:10.
And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, Joel 2:30-31, by showing wonders in heaven and in earth - darkening the sun, and turning the moon into blood. This general mode of describing these judgments leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.
The falling of stars, i.e. those meteors which are called falling stars by the common people, was deemed an omen of evil times.
Verse 30
Verse 30. Then shall appear the sign of the Son of man — The plain meaning of this is, that the destruction of Jerusalem will be such a remarkable instance of Divine vengeance, such a signal manifestation of Christ's power and glory, that all the Jewish tribes shall mourn, and many will, in consequence of this manifestation of God, be led to acknowledge Christ and his religion. By της γης, of the land, in the text, is evidently meant here, as in several other places, the land of Judea and its tribes, either its then inhabitants, or the Jewish people wherever found.
Verse 31
Verse 31. He shall send his angels — τους αγγελους, his messengers, the apostles, and their successors in the Christian ministry.
With a great sound of a trumpet — Or, a loud-sounding trumpet - the earnest affectionate call of the Gospel of peace, life, and salvation.
Shall gather together his elect — The Gentiles, who were now chosen or elected, in place of the rebellious, obstinate Jews, according to Our Lord's prediction, Matthew 8:11-12, and Luke 13:28-29. For the children of the kingdom, (the Jews who were born with a legal right to it, but had now finally forfeited that right by their iniquities) should be thrust out. It is worth serious observation, that the Christian religion spread and prevailed mightily after this period: and nothing contributed more to the success of the Gospel than the destruction of Jerusalem happening in the very time and manner, and with the very circumstances, so particularly foretold by our Lord. It was after this period that the kingdom of Christ began, and his reign was established in almost every part of the world.
To St. Matthew's account, St. Luke adds, Luke 21:24, They shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shalt be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, till the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. The number of those who fell by the sword was very great. ELEVEN HUNDRED THOUSAND perished during the siege. Many were slain at other places, and at other times. By the commandment of Florus, the first author of the war, there were slain at Jerusalem 3,600, Jos. WAR, b. ii. c. 14. By the inhabitants of Caesarea, above 20,000. At Scythopolis, above 13,000. At Ascalon, 2,500. At Ptolemais, 2,000. At Alexandria, 50,000. At Joppa, when taken by Cestius Gallus, 8,400. In a mountain called Asamon, near Sepporis, above 2,000. At Damascus, 10,000. In a battle with the Romans at Ascalon, 10,000. In an ambuscade near the same place, 8,000. At Japha, 15,000. Of the Samaritans, on Mount Gerizim, 11,600. At Jotapa, 40,000. At Joppa, when taken by Vespasian, 4,200. At Tarichea, 6,500. And after the city was taken, 1,200. At Gamala, 4,000, besides 5,000 who threw themselves down a precipice. Of those who fled with John, of Gischala, 6,000. Of the Gadarenes, 15,000 slain, besides countless multitudes drowned. In the village of Idumea, above 10,000 slain. At Gerasa, 1,000. At Machaerus, 1,700. In the wood of Jardes, 3,000. In the castle of Masada, 960. In Cyrene, by Catullus the governor, 3,000. Besides these, many of every age, sex, and condition, were slain in the war, who are not reckoned; but, of those who are reckoned, the number amounts to upwards of 1,357,660, which would have appeared incredible, if their own historian had not so particularly enumerated them. See Josephus, WAR, book ii. c. 18, 20; book iii. c. 2, 7, 8, 9; book iv. c. 1, 2, 7, 8, 9; book vii. c. 6, 9, 11; and Bp. Newton, vol. ii. p. 288-290.
Many also were led away captives into all nations. There were taken at Japha, 2,130. At Jotapa, 1,200. At Tarichea, 6,000 chosen young men, who were sent to Nero; others sold to the number of 30,400, besides those who were given to Agrippa. Of the Gadarenes were taken 2,200. In Idumea above 1,000. Many besides these were taken in Jerusalem; so that, as Josephus says, the number of the captives taken in the whole war amounted to 97,000. Those above seventeen years of age were sent to the works in Egypt; but most were distributed through the Roman provinces, to be destroyed in their theatres by the sword, and by the wild beasts; and those under seventeen years of age were sold for slaves. Eleven thousand in one place perished for want. At Caesarea, Titus, like a thorough-paced infernal savage, murdered 2,500 Jews, in honour of his brother's birthday; and a greater number at Berytus in honour of his father's. See Josephus, WAR, b. vii. c. 3. s. 1. Some he caused to kill each other; some were thrown to the wild beasts; and others burnt alive. And all this was done by a man who was styled, The darling of mankind! Thus were the Jews miserably tormented, and distributed over the Roman provinces; and continue to be distressed and dispersed over all the nations of the world to the present day. Jerusalem also was, according to the prediction of our Lord, to be trodden down by the Gentiles. Accordingly it has never since been in the possession of the Jews. It was first in subjection to the Romans, afterwards to the Saracens, then to the Franks, after to the Mamalukes, and now to the Turks. Thus has the prophecy of Christ been most literally and terribly fulfilled, on a people who are still preserved as continued monuments of the truth of our Lord's prediction, and of the truth of the Christian religion. See more in Bp. Newton's Dissert. vol. ii. p. 291, &c.