by LoveUniHateExams 88 Replies latest social entertainment
In fact Rey is a classic Mary Sue. Young Anakin is a massive Mary Sue. The two statements are not mutually exclusive.
X2
also, td alluded to another one that needs to mentioned: emily blunt in edge of tomorrow. She was awesome.
And Emilia Clark seems to ruin anything shes in. The cast of Game of thrones, top to bottom is really good. Some of them are just fantastic. She is the one exception. Anytime i see her i cant help but roll my eyes.
<<no, we see Rey scavenging parts of wrecked ships, cleaning them up and selling them to Unkar Plutt. What we don't see is Rey as a scavenger getting ships working again>>
We see her fixing starship parts. Starships are made of starship parts. And she has. knowledge of the 'Falcon's maintenance history.
<<but Luke didn't understand R2 right away. 3PO was there at the beginning to translate. Later, in Luke's X-wing, R2's bleeps were translated for Luke on a monitor. Then after that, Luke picks up what R2's saying. Rey understands BB-8 from the get-go. It's ridiculous.>>
Maybe she's worked with BB series droids or other astromech droids? Unlike Anakin, who seemingly only knows standard, Rey might have a talent for languages having been exposed to more in the obviously more comopolitan environment she was in than a farm on Tatooine. Note, rather than saying 'I can talk to my phone and my phone can talk back, why on any given planet can't astromech droids talk standard', you go "ARGH! A girl is talking to a robot". :-D
Your lack of suspension of belief seems a tad gendered.
<<We don’t know her real backstory - admit it, Rey shouldn't be able to understand Chewie. Rey's never been to Kashyyk, and there are no Wookiees on Jakku>>
You know this how, having admitted we don't know her backstory.
<<this is true but throughout the OT Luke learns, makes mistakes, learns from his mistakes and becomes more powerful. The Luke in ANH and the one in RotJ are in two very different places>>
We certainly see Rey gain power as she realises her latent Force powers. By the time she does the rock lifting she has arguably had more training than Luke had when he destroyed the Death Star with an impossible shot.
<<these are some good points, and I wish the new trilogy explored Rey's character and background a bit more. But with Luke the risk-averse background contrasts well with his yearning for adventure. He has 'too much of his father in him.'>>
Well, maybe in a non-creepy way Rey has some of her father in her? Lack of backstory.
<<Being a good shot as a pilot is part of Luke's skillset. He 'used to bullseye wamp rats in [his] T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than 2 metres.'>>
Yes, an unmounted rifle in a T-16 is EXACTLY like the quad cannon on a X-Wing, Oh, except they are not. Likewise, a torpedo targeting system is utterly unlike a slug-throwing rifle you hold to your shoulder and sight using your eyes.
<<With the Death Star shot, perhaps he got lucky. Or, seeing as Luke had already been introduced to the Force, perhaps he used the Force.>>
It was the Force. There is no suggestion it was luck anywhere in the canon. But good to know that boys can get lucky...
<<It's interesting you said this comment in reply to my point about Rey pulling off a Jedi mind trick just like that, with no training. You have no answer to that>>
Yeah, I missed that. Never seen people dancing and exchanging moves? Naturally skilled dancers can watch someone do something and duplicate it. Hell, Mozart at age 14 heard 'Miserere' a 14 minute long complex choral piece performed in the Sistine Chapel, went home, and wrote it down from memory (thus committing one of the first recorded acts of music piracy as the score was not freely available then). Rey simply reverses the trick that Kylp tried on her. Nothing someone who is not naturally talented could not do in the real world with something they were talented.
<<no, I didn't miss it - that's the whole issue. Rey is very powerful and does amazing shit with no training needed. It's ridiculous. Imagine if Luke had done better Jedi stunts than Yoda that first time on Dagobah, or if Luke had somehow bested Vader on Bespin. That's the level of Mary Sue/Gary Stu and dumbf**kery we're talking about here>>
<<Yeah, Luke had shut himself off from the Force, you are comparing apples to oranges.>>
<<no, I'm complaining that Rey is brilliant at everything, first time ... that there's little opportunity for her to overcome adversity (she just needs to turn up because she always wins), that there's no opportunity whatsoever for her to learn from her mistakes (she doesn't make any), that as a consequence of all this, there's little opportunity for her to grow as a character.>>
In general the pacing of the movies is shit, for all I enjoy them vastly. ANH and TLJ are meant chronologically to be immediately one after the other. They've removed the travel takes time concept, by and large, although bring it back in when convenient, thus destroying a vital narrative conceit; the cavalry is literally always over the next hill now. It is this which leads to the frenetic pace and the lack of story arc. No SJW agenda, just unnecessary story-telling choices. But I bet you've not complained about the lack of scenes of Legolas collecting arrows...
<<Rey is a Mary Sue>>
No Rey reveals the ultimate issue when you have a 'magic' system, by whatever name you call it, that is essentially made up as it goes along. There's old non-canon (now) novels where Luke pulls Star Destroyers out of orbit using the Force. It's the same narrative path in Dune with Paul as the Kwisatz Haderach, the same issue with Hermione Granger and time-turners. You are criticising faults that a premise and poor story development inevitably lead to, regardless of gender, but are getting a tad hysterical about it because it is a girl. Star Wars has shit internal logic, as does Harry Potter. Plot Holes the size of stars. But you're only excited about this one because it is about a girl.
<<In the one moment in TLJ where another character out-Mary Sues Rey, we see Leia fly through space - what in the everlasting f**k?!
Total bullshit>>
Nope, you being too invested in your precious head-canon to accept the twin of the powerful Jedi might have in extremis unexpected abilities. You miss out on the emotion of the scene you're so busy looking for testicles or the logical development of an illogical inconsistent magic power that never has a logical development.
<<As for explaining the SJW propaganda>>
Yup, there we go again. Loaded language. I warned you. And you should know better. Likewise, using ad hominem to attack someone on account of their weight! Really not doing yourself any favours and highlighting that the issue here is not anything to do with Star Wars but everything to do with your attitude towards gender and a shitty attitude towards other people from the safety of a keyboard.
SJW do not exist except as a pejorative term used by those who are unable to come up with a concise description of the behaviour they are criticising or the identity of groups that exclusively engage in those behaviours, or even the listing of a local SJW group.
You can find a local feminist group. But you won't be able to find a local SJW group. You're using loaded language. And anyway, wanting social, racial and sexual equality is not a bad thing. That's what social justice is. You fighting against that?
This is kinda my point about a film with magic in it. People are a/ wailing they are ding the magic wrong, and b/ only complaining about them doing the magic wrong if the magic user has boobs.
Films with magic require disbelief. Choosing to make a fuss about this who you have to suspend disbelief about a female character when no one did this when TPM came out is indicative of issues the complainer has with gender rather than an issue they have with magic.
Ive tried to avoid the particulars of this rey/luke new/old sw debates due to the emotional nature of it and because im more happy talking about good female leads, but let me offer my perspective. As always, this is one mans view only, your results may vary.
My issue with ALL of the movies following rotj (which i wasn't a huge fan of anyway) is that lucas lost the thread of his own story. In short, you cant tell me a story, get me invested in the narative and then call me uncultured when YOU switch the narrative and i dont like it. YOU (lucas) changed the basics of the story. Dont hate me for liking what you originally wrote and not the crap you changed upto.
The sw saga started (as ive explained dozens of times on this jw forum) as a space adaptation of meiji era japan. The end of the era of the samurai. It was a fantastic martial arts epic. It was never “magic”. The force is 100% an adaptation of “ki” or “chi”. Lucas has over and over admitted the influance of akira and his love of Japanese film.
The original two stick closely to this thread and the theme of overthrowing an evil empire with the help of the last of the samurai.. sorry, jedi.
The second three were supposed to tell the story of how a great samurai, sorry jedi, fell from grace and helped overthrow the rightful government and became a despot. It failed. On all counts.
The new stories have no thread related back to the original at all. They want fans to remember the “magic” of the originals but pay no respect to the basic premise = samurai and martial arts.
Leia surviving space has NOTHING to do with space marial arts. Its was pandering to those of us that remembered her from the originals. Dont be mad that i understand her living in the vacuum of space and somehow using the force to pull her self back inside is TERRIBLE story writing.
Kylo is a TERRIBLE villian. His opening scene in tfa was fantastic. He almost immediately turned into a simpering piece of garbage. I want him to die, not because hes a villian, but because hes terribly written and not very well portrayed.
Rey sucks, not because she a woman, but because she sucks. Anikin sucked, not because the kid was a terrible actor or because christain hadenson was awful, but because they deviated from his established story and expected us to forget and be ok with it.
Stop blaming the victims (we the fans) for the crimes of the current movies.
We see her fixing starship parts - we see her salvaging and washing ship's parts to sell to Plutt in exchange for food. Then all of a sudden, this means that later on she's a good mechanic who can fix the Falcon better than Han can. This is bollocks, and one bit of evidence for Rey being a Mary Sue.
And she has. knowledge of the 'Falcon's maintenance history - we're not told this in TFA movie. Are you sure you're not fan-splaining?
Maybe she's worked with BB series droids or other astromech droids? - urggh, more fan-splaining! We don't see any other BB-type droids on Jakku, we don't even hear Rey talk about interacting with these droids before.
You know this how, having admitted we don't know her backstory - c'mon, don't be silly. Going by TFA movie, Rey shouldn't be able to understand Chewie. Finn couldn't but as a stormtrooper, FN-2187 had more likelihood of bumping into wookiees that Rey. Finn travelled around the galaxy with the First Order; Rey was abandoned on a little rock in the middle of nowhere aged about 5. And yet, somehow Rey can understand Chewie no problem, even translating Chewie's words for Luke in TLJ, but Finn can't understand sh!t.
We certainly see Rey gain power as she realises her latent Force powers - but not by the usual Padawan-Knight-Master route that every other force-sensitive being in the whole of the SW franchise took.
By the time she does the rock lifting she has arguably had more training than Luke had when he destroyed the Death Star with an impossible shot - Luke had actual lessons with Ben. Lessons where Luke f**ked up and looked silly, but put these things right in later lessons. Rey's lessons with old Luke on Ahkh-To cannot be counted as actual training, surely.
Yes, an unmounted rifle in a T-16 is EXACTLY like the quad cannon on a X-Wing, Oh, except they are not - ok, the two weapons and ships are different. Luke's character progression may be a little clunky at times but at least he has character progression, unlike Rey.
<<With the Death Star shot, perhaps he got lucky. Or, seeing as Luke had already been introduced to the Force, perhaps he used the Force.>>
It was the Force - ok, it was the Force. But my point is that an incredibly accurate shot at the Death Star's main reactor could happen by an unskilled person who's lucky; lift tons of massive rocks can never be luck. So, lifting tons of rocks w/out actual Jedi training is ridiculous, much more ridiculous that Luke hitting the main reactor.
<<It's interesting you said this comment in reply to my point about Rey pulling off a Jedi mind trick just like that, with no training. You have no answer to that>>
Yeah, I missed that. Never seen people dancing and exchanging moves? Naturally skilled dancers can watch someone do something and duplicate it. Hell, Mozart at age 14 heard 'Miserere' a 14 minute long complex choral piece performed in the Sistine Chapel, went home, and wrote it down from memory - what the f**k has this got to do with Rey pulling off a Jedi mind trick or the SW franchise in general?! Seriously, dude.
This (your comment): In general the pacing of the movies is shit, for all I enjoy them vastly. ANH and TLJ are meant chronologically to be immediately one after the other. They've removed the travel takes time concept, by and large, although bring it back in when convenient, thus destroying a vital narrative conceit; the cavalry is literally always over the next hill now. It is this which leads to the frenetic pace and the lack of story arc.
doesn't answer this (my comment): <<no, I didn't miss it - that's the whole issue. Rey is very powerful and does amazing shit with no training needed. It's ridiculous. Imagine if Luke had done better Jedi stunts than Yoda that first time on Dagobah, or if Luke had somehow bested Vader on Bespin. That's the level of Mary Sue/Gary Stu and dumbf**kery we're talking about here>>
or this (my comment): <<no, I'm complaining that Rey is brilliant at everything, first time ... that there's little opportunity for her to overcome adversity (she just needs to turn up because she always wins), that there's no opportunity whatsoever for her to learn from her mistakes (she doesn't make any), that as a consequence of all this, there's little opportunity for her to grow as a character.>>
And I think you've confused ANH with TFA. Still, it's easily done because one is a carbon-copy of the other. XD
Nope, you being too invested in your precious head-canon to accept the twin of the powerful Jedi might have in extremis unexpected abilities - this is nonsense. Before the space-flying, Leia had only talked telepathically with Luke. That was it. Then she can fly in space. This is Mary Sue right here.
You miss out on the emotion of the scene you're so busy looking for testicles or the logical development - no, I get the emotions of the scene. The bit at the beginning where Kylo Ren and Leia (his mother) have a telepathic moment and Ren hesitates is emotional and gripping. Then the part where Leia is a space Mary Poppins/Sue was very emotional again for me ... the emotion being laughter. XD (Not what the director wanted.)
SJW do not exist except as a pejorative term used by those who are unable to come up with a concise description of the behaviour they are criticising or the identity of groups that exclusively engage in those behaviours, or even the listing of a local SJW group - ok, on the same basis I can say that The Patriarchy doesn't exist either, except has a pejorative term used by contemporary feminists. See, we can all play that game, chuck.
And anyway, wanting social, racial and sexual equality is not a bad thing. That's what social justice is. You fighting against that? - It depends what kind of equality we're talking about. I'm all for equality of opportunity.
But I'm dead against equality of outcome - that's what I'll be fighting against.
Totally agree that Lucas was an unsafe pair of hands for the story. When he did the p[requals no one would say 'this sucks' and look what happened.
I think you need to add in the influence of Dune, which looms large over Star Wars. But yes The Hidden Fortress and other Japanese influence are there too, and add in a WWII carrier/fighter model for space combat, with a trusty souped up freighter plane and it's charismatic rouge of a pilot.
<<Leia surviving space has NOTHING to do with space marial arts. Its was pandering to those of us that remembered her from the originals. Dont be mad that i understand her living in the vacuum of space and somehow using the force to pull her self back inside is TERRIBLE story writing.>>
I actually think that was great, emotively. I'd avoided all spoilers so I was totally in the experience and my head canon can take it. I gasped. It was emotive. Far better than the past half-dozen Marvel shit romps in twenty seconds of film. But totally ridiculous if you think about it.
<<Kylo is a TERRIBLE villian. His opening scene in tfa was fantastic. He almost immediately turned into a simpering piece of garbage. I want him to die, not because hes a villian, but because hes terribly written and not very well portrayed.>>
Have you seen the Twitter account Emo Kylo Ren @KyloR3n? It is rather fun. All the "WAH! Girl 'Jedi'! crew" seem to miss out on what a twat he is.
And I think the suckage of powerful magic users stems from lack of internal logic. Your average game of fucking D&D has more logic in progression of magic powers. If you want to have a 'logical' magical system, you have to look hard and far, for example the Rivers of London books by Ben Aaronovitch. Otherwise you end up with inflation of powers of relics of such power they would prevent the entire story from happening (like time turners in HP).
<With the Death Star shot, perhaps he got lucky. Or, seeing as Luke had already been introduced to the Force, perhaps he used the Force.>>
It was the Force - ok, it was the Force. But my point is that an incredibly accurate shot at the Death Star's main reactor could happen by an unskilled person who's lucky
Perhaps one or both parties could clarify the debate on this particular point for me as i dont understand what the confusion is.. it was, without any debate at all, a function of the force. Luke is flying down the trench. Hes using the targeting computer as everyone before him has, and going to fail as everyone else has. Obi wan speaks to him and tells him “use the force luke... let go!” . He was echoing the training the he gave him on the falcon earlier when he lowered the blast shield on his helmet. As if that wasnt enough, the scene immediatetly cuts to vader trying to shoot him down and saying “the force is strong with this one”. Luke then switches his computer off and then reaches out with his feelings (uses the force) to make the shot.
what is the debate on this point?
I was OK with Rey having the powers she did in Force Awakens. But, that was with the tease that she had inherited the power from someplace or someone. Maybe somebody as powerful as the Emperor. A descendant of Vader from another line. Of Obi-Wan. Or Luke. Maybe even Snoke.
Yeah, there's the question of how she was able to do what she does. But, Luke was apparently a good pilot because unbeknowst to him, the force, it was alluded to, was sort of giving him precognition. Same with Anakin. So he instinctively knew when to zig and zag even before knowing how to do other things with the Force. So yeah, if Rey is strong in the force, I can see her piloting the Falcon well. And if she is a junker, she has to know how things work. You have to know what's what to know what's valuable. So I can see her knowing how to fix a ship better than Han who always seemed to be fixing something (perhaps because he wasn't that knowledgeable about it in the first place and was always putting band-aids on instead of fixing core problems).
Besting Kylo Ren seemed a stretch. Of course he had just battled Finn too. You don't take a boxer and put him in back-to-back matches on the same night. So I could excuse that maybe he was tired out a bit and not fighting his best. Or maybe he's been up for the last 30 hours or whatever and is exhausted. Not his day. But Rey force-controlling James Bond seemed a little iffy. And making the light saber come to her in the fight with Kylo.
I mean, as little as it was, Obi-Wan had already started training Luke and training him how to get in touch with the force and tap into it to help him. Rey was never pointed in that direction by anybody, yet she's doing force things. Luke did that same "making the light saber come to him" thing in the cave with the snow beast. But he had already had a little bit of training AND possibly continued to train with force-ghost Obi-Wan a bit. Remember how he had to concentrate and concentrate and it took forever? Not so with Rey.
And I was willing to overlook parts of that as long as we learned why she's so powerful in the next movie. But we didn't. Rian Johnson tore up all of the foundations he was given because he think's he's an arteest and has to be non-conventional. He spent his 20's and 30's seeing shows that thought it was cool to throw out conventions and surprise you. The show has put this character at the front and you've grown to know them? Well they're dead now! Bet you didn't see that coming? See how edgy we are? (Lost, Walking Dead, etc). And Rian Johnson brought that notion to Star Wars. Thought you had an idea where Rey's backstory was heading? Nope! I did something different. Look at me, I'm clever.
She basically came from the trailer-trash of the galaxy. Nothing special. She didn't descend from a powerful force master (male or female). It wasn't a virgin birth engineered by mitichlorians. It wasn't an all-mitichlorian birth with NO mother. Nothing to explain her powers or knowledge of them.
Rey had Mary Sue leanings in Force Awakens, but Last Jedi solidified it.
Abaddon, it seems we have some common ground, although i have a points of debate and disagreement.
For instance, on the leia scene, you keep refering to “emotion”. I find it impossible to feel good about her survival at the expense of the rules of the world that were created. It was a classic deus ex machina. There were ten thousand ways to handle that without making it such an eyerollingly stupid move. If you like it, your in luck. Its preserved in digital format for your viewing enjoyment for all time. My view of it as poorly planned pandering is unchanged.
As a small aside, we seem to agree on the the influances that drove the original movie. Given that lucas has spoken on this many times it seems like an easy point of agreement.. but you also mention “dune”. Dune was an early 80’s movie. Sw was 1977. Perhaps you have the influances reversed, unless you mean the original serial story of dune. That was late 60’s but your way overselling any influence that had. Lucas clearly took a ton from akira and from Japanese culture. I see very little if any from dunes source material.
Jenna Jameson was the first that came to my mind.
She could really multi-task.
Rub a Dub
