by joe134cd 48 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Slim,
TD I’m not so sure why you object to numbers of adherents/congregations as measures of success.
I'm not objecting to it as a measure of success, I'm objecting to as the measure of success. (i.e. Larger = More successful)
Like you said above, we can measure success in various ways.
As someone who is intimately familiar with both groups, I object to the footrace and corporate analogies. You can't "race" someone who's not running the same course as you.
Like slim I have been to various churches since I have left the JWs. The thing that intrigues me isn’t so much their beliefs, but the culture that exists with in these religions. In doing so, I have found that the JWs are by no means unique in their beliefs and how they behave. Three observations really stand out to me. I was stunned when I went to the Christadelphians society, and was able to use JW talk and doctrine (that I thought was unique to the JWs) and they knew exactly what I was talking about. The SDA also believe that Michael the Archangle is Jesus. LDS /JW / iglasea ni christo (INC) certainly gauge their success by the size of their membership. Hence, we have these huge lds temples been built that cannot be supported by local membership . At the same time the INC were boasting about a JW assembly hall purchased in Spain and various buildings around the world, because of increasing membership. The reality is the lds isn’t growing and the Spanish assembly hall purchase was the result of migration from the Philippines, rather than real growth in amongst the Spanish community.
For the record I am certainly no JW apologist. But I have a degree of annoyance with the ignorance that is out there. Mr JWFacts has a section dedicated to how badly the JWs have done statistically. But really has failed to acknowledge that the lds have done a lot worse and the JWs could be on par with the SDA. Don’t forget the LDS and SDA have a better PR and are significantly more wealthy. Although I dislike the JW religion, I have to admire how it has out performed, it’s religious competitors, both with its growth and it preaching work. Sure they are in decline, but there are others who are taking greater hits. Here is another posting I made a few months back on the same topic.
Well Covid sure has done a good job in reducing members in all religious faiths.
I agree with joe 👍
Hi Joe
I'm glad you got in touch.
I have watched the decline of the LDS Church with fascination for 20+ years. It genuinely pleases me to see its decline because it is one of the most damaging cults on earth, in terms of ripping families apart. For several years I have believed the JWs take out top spot on that shameful league table, because there are far more active JWs than Mormons. I'm glad you have escaped it. Scientology does more damage to individual families, but there are so few of them they hardly rate a mention.I have received a huge amount of feedback from exmormons and attending Mormons since I posted about this a few weeks ago. You might enjoy reading my initial post on my personal Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/simon.southerton/posts/10223782428822022 I also got a huge response on reddit. I managed to distract American exmormons from their stupid memes for a day or two. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/owrtxm/my_lds_church_growth_hobby_horse/A good friend of mine in Utah told me that a LDS General Authority had admitted to an LDS friend that global attendance was around 25% or about 4 million. In my view that is overly optimistic. There are many countries around the world where attendance is 10%. The UK is the LDS heartland in Europe. If the UK is now about 14.5% then the global average outside of North America is definitely no more than 15%. The US will be around 30% (max) so there is no way the global average is 25%. After the pandemic I would not be surprised to see a massive one off drop of about 10%.So in terms of bums on seats, I reckon the Mormons have about 3.5 million a week prior to the pandemic and it must be heading dangerously close to 3 million. Its is staggering how well you can hide a big lie when you have unlimited financial resources, a well oiled PR department, and a membership who are disturbingly incurious.
I would be interested in how successful the JWs have been with Pacific Islanders? Almost 40% of Australian Mormons are from Tonga and Samoa. Another 15% or so would be of Maori ancestry. The Mormon Church seems to align very well with their culture, but most are Mormons for tribal, rather than spiritual reasons. This will not lead to stable growth in Australia. In fact I predict that it will collapse dramatically within the next 5 to 10 years.I'd also be interested to hear how well the JWs are tracking globally and in NZ and Australia. Hopefully it is southwards.
Best regardsSimon
Like slim I have been to various churches since I have left the JWs. The thing that intrigues me isn’t so much their beliefs, but the culture that exists with in these religions.
Okay Joe, maybe we're just looking at different parts of the same elephant.
The two groups definitely share some similarities, but they are night and day in other areas which stand out in bass relief as a child, an adolescent and a young adult
The JW belief that this world is doomed; that it's a lost cause; and that everything from community service to simple charity is the equivalent of patching the roof of a condemned house (Their analogy, not mine...) makes them chronic underachievers who do the bare minimum throughout life.
The Mormon belief that intelligent beings progress almost infinitely, eventually attaining the status of a god and that "hell" is simply a retardation of this process fosters an attitude of Wer sich nicht weiterentwickelt, entwickelt sich zurück if you will.
I could flesh this out to the size novel. I could dredge up the old brochure, School and Jehovah's Witnesses or quote what the JW's have to say about overtime, career advancement, and college. I could point out that it has been the Mormons who were the community and civic leaders in the Southwestern U.S. while the JW's comforted themselves by quoting 1 Corinthians 1:27, but anyone who grew up as a JW knows exactly what I'm talking about.
Both groups are about equally odd in my opinion, but I found (through observation and direct experience) the JW worldview to be far more destructive to young people. When we talk about the "success" of a religion (As opposed to a weed or a virus) I believe this is an important consideration.
I totally agree with you. Here are some quotes, I’ve heard from the past, that would sum up what you have said.
The bonnets may be different but the engines are the same.
Mormons are more fanciful but JWs are more dangerous.
Mormons are JWs weirder older cousins.
Doctrine aside, I agree that the JWs are more destructive. There would be few here that would disagree. Based on life style I would actually choose to be Mormon. My life may of turned out much different to what it is now.
Despite the “JW world view been more dangerous” wouldnt this be testimony to how well they have taken their message to the world. I suppose a measure of loyalty that it’s members have to a cause, even if it is wrong.
The point I was trying to make here isn’t, how a like or not a like they are. It’s a matter of membership. I think it’s been clearly demonstrated that the JWs have a bigger, more active and engaged membership. It’s impressive when compared to other more established and wealthy organisations, who by rights should have a bigger and more loyal customer base. This is simply not the case. Hare and tortoise really.
| LDS Total population | |
|---|---|
16,663,663 United States6,592,195 | |
Vanderhoven7: You have missed the whole point. At least read the email that I have cut and pasted from an ex Mormon bishop, Simon Southerton. You need to watch the the video that was initially posted. That 16.5 million is so inflated it’s almost laughable. The example was given of the pacific nation of Tonga. With the counting methods used by the church, there can only be two outcomes.
(1)Tonga could end up having more affiliated mormons, than what are alive on the island.
or
(2) The lds has got a massive problem with apostasy with its members leaving to join with another Christian denomination.
