What d'ya think of Greg Stafford's 'JW defended', '3 dissertations', etc (page 2)

rocketman

Yeah, like e-watchman has the all the answers.

Room 215

Being ``long on problems, short on answers" aptly describes the current state of the WTBTS.

wannaexit

I have a copy of Greg Staffords "3 disseration". I did not like it.

Greg seems to be sitting on the fence. On the one hand he seems to realize the flaws and lies of watchtower, but on the other hand he appears to be defending it.

Just my illiterate opinion. I didin't like the book at all.

Euphemism

I'm inclined to agree somewhat with wannaexit, although I wouldn't be quite so down on it.

Apparently, Greg was trying to publish his opinions while avoiding the judicial ax. So his writing tends to be mealy-mouthed and convoluted, because he says things like "One might be led to conclude from this" or "A reasonable person might begin to wonder if," instead of simply stating his conclusions.

It's still, imho, a valuable analysis. And his survey of Witness chronology is without parallel, as far as I'm aware.

AlanF

Stafford wrote JWs Defended when he was still a heavy duty JW apologist. Most of it was a defense of non-trinitarianism, but a chapter or two attempted to deal with other criticisms of the JWs. I think Stafford did a poor job of defending the indefensible.

In Three Dissertations Stafford made some very good criticisms of the Watchtower. I think that he was still naively hoping to maintain his status as a JW, but now realizes that this hope was misplaced, as he is now under the gun from the Society. I hear tell that he's already faced a judicial committee, which has decided for the time being to let him be. But we all know that the Society never gives up going after critics who only recently left their nasty cult.

AlanF

TheOldHippie

I think Stafford is in the same position as I am, and quite a few others with us, that we are in agreement with the main parts of WT theology (for example soul, trinity, hell, earth/heaven etc.), but have distanced us from the chronology calculations and above all from certain organizational procedures and conformity requirements as well as man-made regulations (birthdays, elections and civil service flip-flops etc.).

It is not so much practising fence-sitting as it is not throwing the baby out with the tub water or bathing water or however US folks would phrase it - trying to maintain the good things while critizing the undefendable.

Sticking there and hoping for reform is a tough road to follow, it requires a lot of camel swallowing and keeping your head and voice low in order to survive. King upon king in Israel of old went "apostate" while some of the population kept the faith, so it should be no wonder the same thing can happen today, that GB members turn away from the Scriptures and in stead turn to man-made procedures and thus lead their followers away - while others silently see it and stick to their Bible-based faith, "waiting for Jehovah" in a different sense than the said GB members would understand it.

AlanF

The basic problem with quietly sticking with what you call the basics while remaining a JW, OldHippie, is that it can be done quite apart from remaining a JW.

Do you need to believe what you listed as basic JW beliefs by staying a JW? No.

Can you remain true to yourself and, as a Christian, to the Bible while remaining a JW? No.

The Bible itself contains statements that show that one can't remain a good Christian while worshiping the Watchtower 'god'. First, the Bible says that liars will not inherit God's kingdom. Since Watchtower leaders are either personally liars, or throw in their lot with liars, and the Bible states that God is a God of truth, that pretty well eliminates Watchtower leaders as proper Christians (see Job 13:7-12), as well as all who follow them. Luke 21:8 says to avoid those who come in the name of Christ and proclaim "the time is at hand!" This also completely eliminates Watchtower leaders from being proper Christians.

I understand full well how big a mess this creates for people like you and Stafford, but I can offer no help, if you want to remain a Christian. That's partly why I and plenty of others have given up on religion in general and religion based on the Bible in particular. Your problem is in figuring out how to remain a member of a cult that you partly agree with but which will not have you as a member if you don't pretend to agree 100% with its teachings. Obvious solutions are: don't try to remain in a cult, and don't try to keep believing in the Bible.

AlanF

gumby

Obvious solutions are: don't try to remain in a cult, and don't try to keep believing in the Bible.

Thats the hard part for many Alan.......to quit believing in the bible. When you still believe in the bible but not in the 'Organisation' then you are left with the dilema of many scriptures. Scriptures that tell you to meet together with other believers, and to spread the christ message......your left with the paradigm of the N.T Questioning the bible is a big step for many to undertake and I think many are afraid to do that for fear of having no answers or direction.

I personally do not see how so many are of the same mindset of Old Hippy. When I was a dub.....I always believed the GB was guided by Jehovah and couldn't fathom the idea they were wrong in many things. Had I thought that.....I think I would have exited had I had that same realization.

Gumby

TheOldHippie

Your position, AlanF, in many ways is a very logical one for people like me, I realise that. NT speaks about organization, coming together, unity, spreading the message, not keeping away from where the others meet etc.

But, when you speak about liars - then let us take a look at other groups or churches, and what do we see? Pretty much the same thing as you see in the WT. Should I become a Catholic? Even if I should think the theology was rather OK, then just one glance at the Pope and the worshiping of him, the weath, the suppression etc., would keep me from becoming a Catholic from now and till Doomsday. Protestantism? Anything goes, homosexuality, sex outside of marriage, politics, preasts not believing in the Bible - a slack and shallow religion. Born-again groups, Pentecostalists etc.: Threats of hell and fire and brimstone and condemnations and fake healings and datings of the end etc. Seems one would be better of turning to Buddhism or the like.

So I do not think I can stick to the basic faith points I listed in any other group, because they either do not have the same basic points of faith, or they are even worse, organizationally speaking, that the WT. To me, therefore, the for the time being only solution is to stick with the group which to me sticks closest to the Bible, and swallow camels by the dozens while hoping for a change.

Meanwhile, I protest as good as I can, by for example not applauding for the CO's talks etc. - childish, but trying to keep the inner flame alive in evil times ...................

coffee_black

Jesus said "Where 2 or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." That doesn't sound like a big organization to me. Being a Christian is about following Christ...having a relationship with God based on Him, not an organization. I have enjoyed attending different churches, but I don't attend regularly. I don't consider them necessary for me to have faith. or a relationship with God. If all churches disappeared off of the planet tomorrow, my faith in God would still be intact.

What has happened in so many churches is that they eventually acquire power, and mixing that power and authority with spirituality corrupts the whole thing. They end up becoming the opposite of what Jesus intended. Then everyone involved tries to justify the actions and the power center of the organization, changing the focus from God to man. They miss the whole point.

Coffee

What d'ya think of Greg Stafford's 'JW defended', '3 dissertations', etc

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