Perhaps we should go back to good old Russell's days? He did not think it necessary for fellow believers to leave the churches to which they belonged. As far as I have understood, he meant they could stay and work as good influences where they were.
What d'ya think of Greg Stafford's 'JW defended', '3 dissertations', etc
by AntiEntropy 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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gumby
Being a Christian is about following Christ...having a relationship with God based on Him, not an organization.
What has happened in so many churches is that they eventually acquire power, and mixing that power and authority with spirituality corrupts the whole thing. They end up becoming the opposite of what Jesus intended.
Yeah......kinda sorta. Jesus also said to Peter..."Do you love me Peter"?" Peter says, " Yes Lord.....you know I do". Jesus asks him a second and a third time. Jesus says...."feed my sheep".
Then Jesus dies and SHORTLY afterward James takes the lead of the Jerusalem church and problems arise and low and behold ! ........we have church authority telling Jesus believers what the do's and don't are. Bishops, and decons are set up as a means to provide order and dicipline, and sound doctrine within the congregations. Never does the bible during this time......or any other time....encourage it's members to isolate themselves from the church and believe as they see fit as they personally understood Jesus words. If they did......they were labled as Heritics. To follow the bibles own advise you need to stick with the congregation, encourage one another, help out the needed Christian widows and orphans.
So Old Hippie, and coffee- black......can a person be a christian and "go it on their own" ......according to Gods own word as you believe it is? Or...... did the Church lose Jesus meaning right after he died and his own teachings proved to be a failure?
Gumby
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hooberus
OldHippe said: I think Stafford is in the same position as I am, and quite a few others with us, that we are in agreement with the main parts of WT theology (for example soul, trinity, hell, earth/heaven etc.),
Those who no longer believe in the watchtower as God's organization should reconsider the Biblical theology that they learned from this false organization. The Watchtower has misrepresented doctrines such as the Trinity to the point where many (though not all) ex-witnesses have a false concept of what these doctrines actually teach.
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TheOldHippie
These doctrines we learned not from the organization, but from the Bible - and it is Stafford's main point of grief, that the organization has placed itself in the position of the Bible, and of God, to such an extent that they tell they adherents "how would you have learned the truth about such pillars of faith as the soul, hell or trinity, had it not been for the organization?" "How can you turn your back to the organization which has taught you the truth about hell?" etc. They have managed to join the Bible's teachings and themselves so tightly, that people believe they could not have learned the Bible's truths without the organization - and therefore, and that is the tragedy, when people see that the organization is in error, they believe the Bible is in error. Faith in the Bible has become faith in men and in an organization, so erring people and erring organization means erring Bible. And that is the problem. Therefore, I go "back to the Bible", and do not "stick to an organization". For the time being, I try to keep myself within the Bible-based areas of the organization, and refrain from actively supporting the parts which are man-made and speculative.
Many errors in the sentence constructions here, but "Polish" to English is a bit difficult .....
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coffee_black
Gumby,
Sorry it took so long to reply. I'm not here much during the day... Yes, Jesus did say to feed His sheep. You don't need an organization or a printing press for that. It can be done one on one...sharing one's faith... Jesus did not set up an organization while He was on earth. He simply taught...drew crouds wherever he went. He told his followers quite simply to spread the word. His church consists of those who follow Him. That's what "Christian" means. He didn't dub (excuse the pun) any of His disciples "elder" or "ministerial servant" etc. In fact He said that the least among you will be the greatest.
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy going to Church. However, my salvation does not depend on any church, or any group of humans. They can't give salvation, or take it away. My focus is my relationship with God. I talk more about God than I ever did as a JW. I don't ever force my opinions on anyone. My words are never scripted by a JW outline. They come from the heart.
Gotta' run...have to go to work
Coffee
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scholar
AntiEntropy
You ask for opinions on Greg Stafford'd recent two publications, Jehovah's Witnesses Defended and the Three Dissertations. In his Defended publication he does a good jog in presenting in a excellent academic format the biblical theology of the Witnesses. His apolegetics is excellent in covering Christology and Anti Trinitarianism with up to date scholarship and good use of Patristics literature. His discussion of Salvation in a separate chapter is well presented. The earliest chapter on Jehovah contrast favorably as opposed to the nonsense that Raymond Franz wrote in his Search for Christian Freedom. Overall, Greg has done well with this book.
The position changes significantly with his Three Dissertations where he has deserted sound scholarship as expressed in his previous book. He shows a failure to understand the theology of the Church and launches into an attack on the Organization under the guise of conscience. Greg fails to realize that interpretation is difficult as shown by the fact that many commentaries differ on scripture and so caution must proceed before any dogmatism on certain texts such as Matt 45:47.
He has done a excellent survey of the Society.s chronolgy but has failed to grasp the key issues regarding the Jonsson hypothesis. He is correct in concentrating on the seventy years and correctly shows that each of the principal texts is open to interpretation. He fails though to form an definte view and has exposed himself to any sort of opinion. I would argue that in the case of chronology that there is suffiicient evidence to be certain about dates and an interpretation arising from that. In regards to chronology Stafford has yielded too much to the opinions of higher critics and this must cause spiritual weakness.
scholar
BA MA Studies in Religion
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setfreefinally
Scholar,
What bible are you using???? I dont see a Matthew 45:47 in mine.
Also what is a higher critic in your opinion?
Greg fails to realize that interpretation is difficult as shown by the fact that many commentaries differ on scripture and so caution must proceed before any dogmatism on certain texts such as Matt 45:47
In the above statement you realize interpretation is difficult.
He fails though to form an definte view and has exposed himself to any sort of opinion. I would argue that in the case of chronology that there is suffiicient evidence to be certain about dates and an interpretation arising from that.
In the above you now criticize Greg for not forming a definite view.
At any rate I thought I read where you said at one point that the WTS should not be disfellowshipping JWs for not agreeing with the 1914 doctrine. What gives? Have you changed your mind on this?
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AlanF
Hey setfreefinally, "scholar" is a stereotypically moronic JW defender who couldn't think his way out of a one-passage rat maze. Such moronicity is the product of JW training. What more can I say?
AlanF
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AntiEntropy
Great! Hamas
U wrote Korean here!
^^
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AntiEntropy
I've read only "3 dissertations" by ordering from Elihu Book.
I wanted to get a copy of "JW defended" but I couldn't get it.
As you guys mentioned, his position feels so vague. But I can not but admit I have a similar attitute to JW in many aspects right now.
Thanks for your sincere responses all.