Who is your " I am" that your voice should be heard?

by The Rebel 13 Replies latest jw friends

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    I was recently thinking before I became " Mike" I was an innocent baby, then as the days passed slowly by, I developed a sence of " iam". As the days moved slowly forward my body, equally slowly developed a "sex organ" whilst my mind took on a sence of " emotional" and " intellectual" I am" . This allowed me to become my current " I am"

    Therefore I think it only fair the innocent child I was half a century past, be allowed to ask these questions:-

    A) How much do i now know who " I am" ?

    B) Is our biological sexual persuasion to be judged by other people's " I am?

    C) How many of our political and religious believes are influenced by other people's " I am ?

    Ok no longer a baby, I could write this thread usng words like psychoanalytic, or the phenomenological theory of subjectivity to explain my " I am",but I think that's " bottling" it. And I think my following questions are more challenging questions. Why? Because I am not asking that you explain your believes, be you athiest, agnostic or believer. My questions are more complicated :-

    A ) Who are You?

    B) Why do you believe as you do?

    C) Why do you think it important other people believe what you believe?

    The Rebel.

  • prologos
    prologos

    A) still a project under construction in my 9st decade. I am all for logic. the word.

    B) like cofty have gone through many stages, exposed to major world view assertions, Nazi, Stalinist, JW, and upheavals ahead.

    C) I consider my views normal of course, and should have the opportunity to be heard, thanks simon. If nobody listens, that is fine too.

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Thanks for the reply " prologos" may I comment on your " I consider my views normal of course". That's my reason for the thread, growing up a witness we consider our " I am" the normal view, yet in my case I was 3 years behind most kids, understanding where babies came from, and only now do I realize how beautiful a woman looks in Sanitex rubber body stockings :-)

    So my silly humor aside, we all want to be like Jesus and say " I am the truth the way and the life" but like Jesus to be able to say that where does that separation from being a baby and the becoming of " I am" start?

    Actually I am not intellectual enough to answer these questions, so may I introduce James Joyce to the forum? He or She said these wonderful words:-

    I am tiny tiny  think

    Ever flying to the spring,

    Long ago I was a king

    Now I do this kind of thing

    On the wing, On the wing Bing.

    I hope I resited the  poem correctly? However I think what he/ she was saying in that poem, is that all of humanities problems, start from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone. Sitting in that room alone I have recently questioned and asked myself why does my " I am" feel it important others believe what I believe?

    The Rebel

  • Sail Away
    Sail Away

    The Rebel, this topic of self, no self or sense of self is of interest to me. I don't have any answers for you. I do think our sense of self, that is sense of a separate "I"/"me" starts when we learn our name and perceive ourseves to be a separate being. Here is an article about Neuroscience and Buddusim that may help you:

    http://qz.com/506229/neuroscience-backs-up-the-buddhist-belief-that-the-self-isnt-constant-but-ever-changing/

    It sounds like you are doing some meditation. This question of just who are we refering to when we say/think "I am" is central to the path of spiritual awakening in Buddhism. I find a teacher named Adyashanti to be quite understandable from a Western perspective. Don't let his references to Christian mystics throw you-- he has a lot to offer.

    adyashanti.org

    PM me if you like, Diane

  • The Rebel
    The Rebel

    Sail away, I love your reply, " I don't have any answers for you".

    As for myself I obviously haven't gone as far as you with the Buddhist belief, but you very astutely spotted some of my questions were raised by my Buddhist learnings.

    Anyway yesterday I met a couple of Mormons, and  I see the witnesses by their trolley every weekend, occassionally the Hari Krishners are banging drums and singing " Hari Krishna"in the high-street. As for the Rebel, I won't get involved in any religion again, but " Sail Away" that doesn't mean I cant define MY 4 noble truths from Buddisam my way, which are:-

    1. Life is suffering,

    2. We all suffer,

    3. We don't have to suffer.

    4 . The end of suffering is accepting life and all it has to offer, good and bad.

    The Rebel.

  • Sail Away
    Sail Away

    The Rebel, I'm totally with you with regard to a total aversion to all things religious. A good Buddhist teacher will tell you to only believe that which you have experienced personally. Don't beleive anything anyone else says is true. That feels like a safe approach to any spiritual leanings we may have.

    I like your version of The Four Noble Truths. I read a book entitled, The Four Agreements years ago. It's not Buddhist Psychology specifically, but dovetails with it well. One of the "Agreements" is: "Don't take anything personally." It's easier to do without a rigid, fixed sense of self. The book may be of interest to you.

    Diane

    PS for onlookers-- My favorite book on Buddhist Psychology is The Wise Heart by Jack Kornfield.

  • millie210
    millie210

    The Rebel,

    I love the way you are not afraid to address the hard to answer questions.

    You are an explorer of the intangible. That takes a lot of courage.

    as to your questions...I will have a go at it.

    I feel myself changing daily so it will be interesting to come back in a year and see if I still believe any of my own narrative as laid out here in three simple questions!

    A ) Who are You?

    currently a person unfettered by religious man made rules. Feels naked, feels scary feels exhilarating.

    B) Why do you believe as you do?

    I have always had a strong inner voice even as a child. When I have followed that voice things work out well. That voice spoke very faintly during my whole adult JW life...questioning. disagreeing. Now that voice is no longer squelched. As to what I believe , I am slowly putting together a belief system that honors what I am a part of (nature, animals, other people) and knows what not to listen to - any human who says "they have it all figured out".


    C) Why do you think it important other people believe what you believe?

    I dont think it is important to me that people believe what I do. I would much rather be live as a student than try to set myself up as a teacher of others.

  • flipper
    flipper

    THE REBEL- Interesting thread. I've always enjoyed studying psychology and the mind. What makes people tick- so to speak. I'll give a stab at your first A. , B. & C. questions. Then I'll give my opinion on your second batch of A., B. & C. questions. I'll answer as honestly as I can at this stage in my life at age 56.

    Your first 3 questions first :

    A ) How much do I now know who " I am " ? I know myself a hell of a lot better than I did growing up in a mind control cult called Jehovah's Witnesses - that's for sure ! In the 13 years since 2003 when I exited my mind is more free thinking, I have better critical thinking skills that I didn't have 13 years ago - and I'm a much more laid back, chill person and less judgmental than I was as a JW. I'm actually fun to be around now and have made some great unconditional friends. I'm a fair individual who stands up for justice and the oppressed. And music has become an even larger part of my life - music heals , playing it on an instrument, singing it, and listening to musically talented artists. It feeds my soul. It's " who I am ". Family that loves each other is everything to me now. I'm close to all my ex-JW or non-JW family - much more so than the judgmental JW family I had. It's who I am. But I'll be there for the JW family if they choose to exit the cult.

    B ) Is our biological sexual persuasion to be judged to be judged by other people's " I am " ? No, of course not. Unless that biological " sexual persuasion " involves criminal child molestation or abusing farm animals or any animals or being abusive to midgets like Peter Dinkley - but I digress.

    I feel that a person's sexual persuasion is a personal thing, homosexuality is fine, straight is fine , bi-sexual is fine - it's a personal thing determined biologically most probably since our birth. People get way too hung up on sex in a " puritanical " way in our society- no thanks to all the control and pressure that organized religion brings on people in various society's.

    C ) How many of our political and religious beliefs are influenced by other people's " I am " ? FAR too many people's views are influenced by other people's " I am " - in my opinion. People need to learn to think for themselves critically instead of being led like sheep to the slaughter mentally and psychologically . In our society people are way too often like flocks of geese that fly south for the winter in formation - just because everybody else's " I am " tells them to do so. If you don't believe me- just look at our political process of who is voting for who in our presidential elections. It's a joke. How many people support Trump or Clinton - yet their character ( or lack thereof in Trump ) or possible crimes they've committed in their past ( in Clinton's case ) don't seem to matter to much of our population. It tells you all you need to know about much of the population's own " I am ". They have no soul, no compass of right or wrong.

    And as far as religious beliefs ? Religion in general has caused so much division , wars, and prejudice in this world - millions of people have died needlessly defending idiotic religious beliefs that harm themselves and other people. And once again- people DO NOT THINK with their minds. They just follow along like sheep to the slaughter. It's like wrestling with pigs in the mud when we follow unscrupulous religions that are unethical. The " pigs " or religious leaders like it - they are corrupt - and then we get muddy as well being in their mire like victims of the Stockholm Syndrome. Many people in religion are like this - they want to be led and they really don't care who leads them- they just don't want to think for themselves. It takes too much effort.

    Now for your 2nd batch of questions :

    A ) Who are you ? I'm Flipper, can't give my real name right here on this confidential board as I still have JW relatives who would shun me or cut me out of my possible inheritance if I identified myself.

    B ) Why do you believe as you do ? I have ethics I feel that are fair, just, and reasonable. I respect others rights to believe as they do- but to not push their politics, religion on me or force me to lose my freedom of mind and decision. I treat others as I would want to be treated. I think peace will at least HELP all of us exist a little easier on this planet - so I sing about fairness, justice, and acceptance in a lot of the songs I write. And yet I feel it's important to expose criminal behavior within politics, religious groups , and others who abuse power in order to take over the human race. So my beliefs are balanced with a love of justice - yet also accepting people for what they are.

    I realize it's not my place to change the entire planet- but if I can give a little light and a little love to people each day in my own geographical area or friends here and elsewhere, my family, wife - then I feel I can bring good effects to various life situations with many people. You know- spread good vibes and bring a positive vibration each day to the planet. Kind of how I roll when waking up each day. I try to dwell on the positive, eliminate the negative as much as possible. I cannot totally eliminate negative- it's part of life- but at least minimize it. Basically my views.

    C ) Why do you think it important other people Believe what you believe ? I don't think that it's important for other people to believe what I believe. They can believe whatever they want to believe. I do think that I try to facilitate peace in many ways- I think everybody should pursue peace- but everybody has their own way to pursue it. I think the human race is capable of many great things - but all people being clones of one another is not a good way to do it. All people being controlled into one belief - is not a good thing. I believe that many good people on this planet can and will accomplish pursuing peace in various different ways- the variety of ideas, input, and views of different humans is what makes the world interesting and go around.

    These things may not ever be accomplished by large governmental or religious leaders - due to stubborn love of power, greed, and money- but I feel each of us can be who we want to be and promote peace in our own little area of earth each day ! And THAT is the beauty of it- world leaders cannot control our mind, love for each other - if we don't allow them to . Kind of my world view. But I respect others world views too- as long as they don't abuse, kill. or maim other innocent people

  • SAHS
    SAHS

    “flipper”: Is our biological sexual persuasion to be judged to be judged by other people's " I am " ? No, of course not. Unless that biological " sexual persuasion " involves . . . abusing farm animals.

    And just who endowed you with the privilege and power of judging those who are in the lonely zoophilia class? Now, I’m obviously against any harm to any living things, and certainly against the traumatization or abuse of any children, but, however, if a guy wants to play ride-the-cow (or filly horse, sow pig, donkey, camel), then who really is anyone to judge? I mean, as Jesus said at Matthew 7:1: “Stop judging that you may not be judged.

    So, if that’s what someone’s unique personal “I am” is – and he/she isn’t hurting anyone or any thing, then, well, what’s it to you, or anyone else?



  • Lieu
    Lieu

    1. I am me

    2. No one believes as I do, they are not me.

    3. I don't. It is not important if people believe as I do. My beliefs can only be mine.

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