Do you think the big A will come after Russia invades Ukraine?

by Iamallcool 54 Replies latest jw friends

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  psyco

  At the moment, it is very hard to answer your question according to the information published on the JW website.

  The WT May 2020, study article 20, paragraphs 15 and 16, says that Armageddon will come when Gog of Magog, a coalition of nations led by the king of the north (Russia and its allies), will attack JWs. That means many nations, if not all, will “follow” the king of the north (Russia and its allies) in this decision.

  At the same time, on January 3rd 2022, the JW website published a piece of global news linking an article (https://www.state.gov/international-religious-freedom-or-belief-alliance-statement-on-jehovahs-witnesses/) saying that many nations (like Australia, Brazil, Denmark, Greece, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Slovakia, the Netherlands, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and the United States) are “opposing” and “condemning” decisions, like Russia (king of the north) one, to persecute (could we say attack?) JWs…
• 

  TD

  Fisherman
  

  Need to solve the crossword puzzle in pencil. You pointed out mistaken wt conclusions but I don’t think the methodology is faulty because it uses only scripture to solve the puzzle.

  By my count, the Bible Students / Jehovah's Witnesses have produced five separate commentaries on Revelation and none of them has been based solely on scripture. All five are a mish-mash of scripture, doctrinal concepts peculiar to JW's, interpretations of scripture used as a springboard for further interpretation all garnished with a sprinkling of history.

  The author or authors of all five assume that they are the "chosen" in the sense of being either active participants and/or the actual targets of prophecy. (I'm using the term loosely as much of this is wild allegory and not prophecy)

  In retrospect, it comes across as arrogant, but I honestly don't think it was meant that way. It's a faulty methodology leading to faulty conclusions.
  

  Rev is not simply history and instruction. It is about relief from human suffering and ultimate justice.

  I said, "primarily" which is not entirely and certainly not "simply"

  The book was written during a time of heightened persecution as an encouragement to Christians. That context can't simply be tossed to the wind, which is what happens when a modern commentator treats the immediate audience as unimportant.
  
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  Fisherman

  TD,

  I enjoy your posts.

  I already stated that WT fills out the Rev book crossword puzzle in pencil—along with other interpretations of the Bible.

  Also, in a previous post I stated that WT does not define the identity of Babylon the Great in the “Insight” book article about the topic but explains why it is not Rome or a political entity. WT suggest in the article that the subject is religious. The Bible does not identify Babylon the Great but Rev says that it is a mystery but the book of Rev also gives clues about her identity wanting that the reader come to his own conclusion. WT has concluded in the past that Babylon the Great is “the world empire of false religion.” —That belief isn’t wild mish mash it makes sense, it lines up with scripture and at the very least is plausible.

  IF Jesus truly was who he claimed he was it was not arrogance for him to speak of himself as the bread of life that came down from heaven and that Messianic prophecies applied to him. However, so it seemed and that is why the Pharisees told Jesus to rebuke his disciples when they extolled him as the Messiah.

  WT methodology is not faulty because WT uses scripture to interpret scripture; that is the algorithm WT uses.

  ”I am coming quickly.” Those Christians were in expectation of Jesus’s return same as the ancient people that God made promises to looked forward to their reward. So those persecuted Christians at the time Rev was written were practically encouraged because the book of Rev helped convince them of the certainty of their reward. But they all died and the realization of what Rev says did not happen at that time. Therefore, the book of Rev is about the future same as the promises written in the “ old testament “ as I also pointed out that the Millenium rule, final test, the resurrection of the dead, etc. is prophecy about the future.
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  Fisherman

  Dang. The tenacity of this guy

  Thank you Jal! It’s been a long time since you and I have communicated on this board. Always enjoyed.
  
  
• 

  TD

  DJW,
  

  What is your source for the idea of Rome (including Dema Roma) as being thought of as being a whore by Jews?

  You mean aside from Revelation, its condemnation of the idolatry in Pergamum and its clear allusion to Dea Roma as she's depicted on numerous reliefs and coins? (Sorry, That's meant as humor)

  My comments were drawn from a variety of liberal scholars, including Richard Rubenstein, A. N. Wilson, James Kugel and Robert Eisenman
  

  I wish the engraving of the back side of the coin was clearer. I wonder what it depicts the goddess as holding in her left hand. It looks like she might be holding a sword.

  Dea Roma is conflated/merged with Tyche, Athena and Minerva and as such is often depicted with her right breast bare and either a sword, spear, scepter or scale in her left hand, which are all motifs of justice. On this particular coin, she's holding a scepter
  

  Also, it is hard for me to imagine how someone considered a goddess with military power (by those who worshipped her) would be considered by others as a whore.

  Seriously? You do understand the attitude of ancient Judaism towards pagan idols, right? I'm not trying to be flippant here. As a JW, it would have been drummed into your head.
  
• 

  TD

  Fisherman,
  

  WT methodology is not faulty because WT uses scripture to interpret scripture; that is the algorithm WT uses.

  That's not really true when it comes to Revelation and you know it.

  The distance from Scranton Pennsylvania to Brooklyn New York; Offset Printing Presses; JW History; Bible Student Conventions in the 1920's; Publications released at those conventions; The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society; The Papacy; The Roman Catholic Church; The Protestant Reformation; The United Nations; The Golden Age/Awake! magazines; Blood Transfusion; The Flag Salute; etc., etc., etc. are not discussed in the book of Revelation, or in the Bible itself for that matter.

  This is all part and parcel of the author's own wild allegory
  
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  Disillusioned JW

  Hi TD, thanks for your replies to me. Yes I do know that the Jews (including Bible writers) had a very negative view of idols (graven images), but I don't recall of the Bible calling such images whores. The images weren't thought of as having sex with anyone (except maybe some who used/worshipped idols thought that in rare cases the idols turned themselves into living fleshly goddesses and had sex with a human worshipers of them), though some of the presumed living goddesses (represented by the images) were thought of as having sex with humans. Maybe some Jews referred to some of the images of goddesses as whores for that reason. Likewise, I know that the Bible (in words attributed to Yahweh) sometimes figuratively described worship of other gods as acts of fornication (in a spiritual sense) and I think some prophetic books of the OT Bible sometimes referred to the nations of Israel and/or other nations as prostitutes. But I don't recall the OT referring to a pagan goddess as a prostitute. But in most respects I don't think like an ancient Jew and that might explain why I am puzzled that Rome and Dema Roma were thought of as being whores by ancient Jews.

  At least according to what I have read, Athena and Minerva in Greko-Roman myths were not considered as whores by the Greeks and Romans. It looks to me that the image of the Roman coin showing a goddess with a scepter appears to have a small garment (perhaps a bikini style top) covering both of her breasts and something covering the upper parts of her legs (though perhaps not her pelvis/pubic region). [Update: maybe in the image on the coin her right breast is uncovered, but it was not an idea I had prior to reading your reply to me, except that the engraving is not of high enough resolution/clarity for me know some of the details I am seeing.] Furthermore, to me it does not convey the idea of her being a prostitute, since I am aware of the ancient Greek idea of fierce warrior Amazon women with one breast uncovered while fighting men.] Furthermore, you say the coin uses the motif of justice (and thus not that of prostitution) in its depiction of Dea Roma.
  

  But even if she were depicted as totally naked, that wouldn't mean the coin was depicting her as a prostitute, since even the Greek and Roman statues of male gods are often depicted as totally naked and yet those gods were not considered by Greeks and Romans as gigolos/prostitutes (though some of those male gods were considered adulterers).
  
• 

  waton

  All the quibbling about apocalyptic mysteries aside, and insisting that preceding Armageddon, there has to be wt leader rapture, wt rupture, Russia et al ravaging Babylon,

  my personal focus, is on Rev 11, kingdom of the world becoming rule by the deity's law, and, that he will

  "destroy those destroying the earth", before the opposite occurs,

  perhaps the dinosaurs were destroying the earth? super vegetarians depleting vital plant life, perhaps? then,

  we would have a precedent to timely divine intervention, seeing that

  water above everest are just an invention.
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  smiddy3

  Why would any Nation Govt. in the world want to attack Jehovah`s Witnesses ? I ask you.? They are an insignificant little religion that doesn`t even preach from House to house anymore

  And if you could do a survey and ask householders in any part of the world what Jehovah`s Witnesses preach to them in their H2H ministry when they did D2D ,they wouldn`t have a clue .

  All they know about JW`s is that they don`t take blood transfusions and they get me out of bed on a Saturday or Sunday mornings when i`m trying to catch up on sleep for working all week , that`s about it.
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  westiebilly11

  Same question asked about the Gulf War......