"Jehovah" in the New Testament (page 4)

peacefulpete

earnest,I posted a reply after your last comment.

metatron

Guys, I haven't read anything about the BIG NUMBER 2 reason why the name "Jehovah" was avoided by Christians.

The Lex Superstitiones ( hope I spelled that right)

The Romans had a law that said that no one was allowed to preach or spread any foreign god outside of its original territory,

on pain of death. This was no joke - and early Christians took it seriously. Take note of how they were accused ( in Acts)

of being preachers of "a foreign deity" - this was a serious charge.

This law FORMS THE BASIS for what the Apostle Paul did at the Areopagus in preaching "an unknown god". He was

avoiding the danger of violating this Roman law by preaching a God, locally honored as unknown.

Thus, Christians would carefully avoid using "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" or whatever, following Paul's example.

In writing the Corinthians, he said they had "One God, the Father". You can read more about this matter

in Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary ( Acts 17).

You won't read about this in the Watchtower because they don't want to talk about it.

metatron

Metatron, Yes Jesus used the phrase "Our Father..." in the Lord's prayer. He did this in part (to my mind) because it was part of his mission here to disclose the actual loving nature and adorable character of God, best understood by mortals as a father. He came to introduce God to Man. To do away with the Bronze Age fake the Pharisees had kept carefully propped up all those years in support of their dearly loved tithe. That one's name was and is Jehovah.

But his mission didn't stop there of course, in my opinion he further came to:

Introduce Man to God. In his ministry and his life, The Master showed God just how fine a of a spirit-led character a mortal man, the product of evolution, could develop.

Introduce Man to Himself. To show man what he could become if he would only apply the Master's teachings in his own life. Look at all The Master accomplished in just over 30 years on this planet. He showed us what we could each become, and showed us The Way to follow in order to do it. And it's simple really; to love God with a whole soul, and your neighbor as yourself.

And look at how the JWs have screwed it up with their constant, insistent study on new and novel ways thru which members of their organization can be kicked out and the expression of their real motivator be more fully practiced as they are the embodiment today of common, garden-variety HATE.

francois

Earnest

peacefulpete:

Mine was not an appeal to authority, merely an interesting and in my estimation, insightful alternative to the traditional rendering.

You asked "What are you telling us?". I inferred that using William Harwood's "translation" of the Lord's Prayer ( Our father in the sky, whose name is taboo) was suggesting that Jesus endorsed the fanatical sacredness shown for God's name, and I was arguing that "taboo" is not an accurate word for the verse in that context. Likewise, when WH translates YHWH elohim (Jehovah God [NWT]) as "Yahweh your gods" I do not think it is accurate although in a different context elohim is translated as "gods". As Jesus said "I have made your name known to them and will make it known" (John 17:26) I think it is perverse to suggest he would make the name taboo. I understand that "name" refers to far more than a personal name, including personality and reputation, but I cannot harmonise "making your name known" with declaring the personal name taboo.

As yours was not an appeal to authority but an interesting (and i.y.o insightful) alternative to the traditional rendering I have no quarrel. I quite often read paraphrased versions of the Bible simply for the joy of reading but I don't rely on them for understanding Bible teachings.

The majority of copies of the Septuigint (even early ones) have already removed the Name to prevent the unlearned from blaspheming by uttering it.

I am not aware of any copies of the LXX prior to the destruction of the Temple (in 70 A.D.) which have the name removed, and it is these copies that the early Christians (including Jesus) would have used.

metatron:

The Romans had a law [The Lex Superstitiones] that said that no one was allowed to preach or spread any foreign god outside of its original territory, on pain of death.

"Jehovah" was known throughout the Roman world as the god of the Jews and his name and its abbreviation (Jah) was used in magical incantations along with numerous other gods. If the Christians did use God's name they would have been simply viewed as a Jewish sect (which was a recognised religion). However, it is far more likely that their preaching of Jesus as Lord brought them into conflict with this law. It was not always strictly enforced but was one of those laws beloved by government to use on organizations of which they disapprove.

Earnest

peacefulpete

Earnest...Your application of John 17 contradicts your statement that the Name "Jehovah" was already known throughout the Roman world as the God of the Jews. There then of course would have been no need for Jesus to 'make it known' to Jews.

Also again you seem to misundertand the word "taboo' as meaning a negative prohibition rather than an expression of honor. Taboo means to reserve for sacred use by not allowing common usage.
The fact that the Name was regarded as a secret magical word by Jewish mystics (as you stated)also supports the position that it was not in common usage because of superstition.

I will also remind you that ALL translations are in fact paraphrases and as such you DO rely on them for understanding Bible teachings. If this were not the case there would not have been 300+ different English translations made. Each translator believed he/she had something to say in the way of interpretation.

Earnest

peacefulpete, the use of God's name in the NWT is a good example of the difference between paraphrasing and translating. The Introduction to the NWT Reference Bible says:

Paraphrases of the Scriptures are not offered. Rather, an effort has been made to give as literal a translation as possible where the modern-English idiom allows and where a literal rendition does not, by any awkwardness, hide the thought.

By and large the NWT succeeds in doing just that. However, although there are good reasons to believe God's name was used by the writers of the NT and subsequently replaced with 'Lord', the fact that we have no extant NT manuscripts with God's name means that the use of 'Jehovah' in the NT is paraphrasing, not translating. I think it would have been better practice to have included 'Jehovah' in the footnotes with an explanation why it likely occurred in the main text of the original.

Earnest: As Jesus said "I have made your name known to them and will make it known" (John 17:26) I think it is perverse to suggest he would make the name taboo.
peacefulpete: Your application of John 17 contradicts your statement that the Name "Jehovah" was already known throughout the Roman world as the God of the Jews. There then of course would have been no need for Jesus to 'make it known' to Jews.

You ignore my statement following the sentence above, namely, "I understand that "name" refers to far more than a personal name, including personality and reputation...". Jesus had made aspects of God's personality and reputation known to his disciples which they had not previously known, although all Jews would be aware of God's personal name whether or not they used it. So, although "name" is not limited to the personal name, I concluded that "...I cannot harmonise 'making your name known' with declaring the personal name taboo".

Earnest: "Jehovah" was known throughout the Roman world as the god of the Jews and his name and its abbreviation (Jah) was used in magical incantations along with numerous other gods.
peacefulpete: The fact that the Name was regarded as a secret magical word by Jewish mystics (as you stated) also supports the position that it was not in common usage because of superstition.

As you may note above, I did not state that "the Name was regarded as a secret magical word by Jewish mystics". That did happen in time and, in fact, they believed in seventy-two names of God made up of different permutations of the tetragrammaton. But that was sometime later. The magical incantations I refer to made use of God's name along with various titles of God (including 'Lord') and names of Greek and Roman deities in the hope that the power associated with names in the ancient world would strengthen their incantations. God's name was no more secret than the alphabet ('abracadabra' was another magical word).

Earnest

peacefulpete

Earnest.....I did not ignore your comment about John 17 and "name" meaning "more than just the name". The way you are using the passage is the same as the WT does. Given the mysterious/mystical nature of the book of John I have no problem with interpreting the passage that way and yet do not see in it as any suggestion that the name was being spoken aloud in public, nor that it was in the text of the NT.

I sent a message to you. It is a discussion from a discussion forum. It explains my understanding of the matter.

homeschool

just saw this thread & thought it was interesting

"Jehovah" in the New Testament

peacefulpete

metatron

peacefulpete

Satanus

Francois

Earnest

peacefulpete

Earnest

peacefulpete

homeschool

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