Losing Salvation

by ClassAvenger 19 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  LittleToe

  IMHO once you've been adopted into God's family, you never lose that status. Nowhere does the bible talk of un-adoption papers.
  Doesn't the illustration of the "Prodigal Son" teach just that?
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  JCanon

  IMHO once you've been adopted into God's family, you never lose that status. Nowhere does the bible talk of un-adoption papers.
  Doesn't the illustration of the "Prodigal Son" teach just that?

  Well...yes and no. I mean AFTER you have gained the prize and are up in Heaven I suppose it's not likely you will rebel and God will take everlasting life from you.

  But even Paul and others had to strive to gain that prize, right? There is the quest to prove FAITHFUL.

  As far as the "prodigal son" goes...Remember the Father said: "Here my son was DEAD and now he has come back to life." So did the Father accept that younger son when he was living that homosexual lifestyle? No. He was considered "dead". Only when he RETURNED to God's house and pure worship did he get forgiven and then the Father gave him the first place in the kingdom.

  Further, how many "sons of the kingdom" in the end fail? Don't forget about the "wise and foolish virgins". HALF of that group of 10 (ten representing "earthly completeness") got saved.

  So the issue is, what point in the "conversion" are we talking about. Apparently all ten virgins were on the same track and anointed Christians. Both "nodded" but the wise virgins are the ones who won out because they had the extra oil. The foolish virgins got their lamps burning again, but not in time.

  So it depends.... upon whether one is at the point of having been granted the prize after being anointed or not. Maybe this is the difference between being "called" and being "sealed".

  So I agree, at "some point" when God considers you have passed the test and would remain faithful, even until death, then he grants you eternal life. At that point I suppose you could say you're "saved". But before that, it's not final. Don't forget, the "evil slave" has to prove himself but is considered part of the Lord's house until he is kicked out. Being one of the "sons of the kingdom", in line for that prize, doesn't mean you have attained it.

  Christ's sacrifice only gives you a second chance. It doesn't give you carte blanche to sin all you want without penalty.

  JCanon
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  LittleToe

  Seems to me that Paul considered that he had attained it this side of eternity.
• 

  Panda

  If you don't accept the myth of the man, woman, snake, tree, garden et al then you realize that there is nothing you need salvation from, so you wouldn't be able to lose something you didn't have a need for to begin with anyway...

  From Baylonian myth to Jesus to us today --- why do you need these connections? And if you hadn't been taught that the Bible stories were holy and you just read it as literature ... well you wouldn't believe this as truth.

  I have faith in humanity to do the right things. I see many individuals who are good because goodness feeds the clean conscience. The spirit of humanity connects not stories and legends but the nature of our planet and universe. We are certainly connected but not by a supreme patriarchal deity but another GOD ( Genetic Organizing Device ) DNA.

  Morals and "goodness" come from our personal decision making devices (those little grey cells), and how we've been nurtured to make decisions. For example, if we believe that only Christians are "saved" then are we not placing ourselves above everyone else because we get saved and communists don't? Isn't that what the WTS does too?

  I was thinking that we are whatever we become AND there is some control on our part for this, so it's not destiny. Also a quote from Occam states "[that} What is, is possible." So nothing is created. People and life are all products in existence (GOD) , from which changes emerge.
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  JCanon

  From Baylonian myth to Jesus to us today --- why do you need these connections? And if you hadn't been taught that the Bible stories were holy and you just read it as literature ... well you wouldn't believe this as truth.

  Well that's a fine argument for non-believers up until now. Christians were always supposed to have FAITH as part of their worship. But now, post 1992 (second coming) the Christians involved are getting higher activity of holy spirit interaction and even some miracles (i.e. the sign of the son of man appeared to them and it was even captured on film). So, even though you can't come along here, for those of us who are actively involved with the modern events connected with the Messiah we have a different basis to believe. We have modern references now to support that the Bible and it's prophecies are true.

  All I can offer you right now, though, is the stock response which was Noah was treated the same way. They thought water falling from the sky was a myth and further likely could not believe based upon their own experience that enough water would fall to flood the entire planet, so they remainded doubters and nonbelievers. But once it started raining, they were ALL believers just as the angels are all believers, because they experienced it, and Noah was then known to be a true prophet.

  So for some, the same thing will happen. People will be doubting, not paying attention, trusting they need to go on with their lives doing the usual things and then suddenly Armageddon will be upon them like birth pangs and they will realize what was written was true. And even though that's a future event, some other events prophesied that were scheduled to happen during the last 49 years leading up to 1996 have happened and so there is increased faith and reassurance among some of us now.

  Bottom line, if someone thinks he has talked to God personally, whether its real or delusional, your argument won't fly with them. Your argument only works because you haven't seen any angels or spirits PERSONALLY and you're betting that there are none just because of that. The first angel you see in person though, you'll instantly become a believer and then accept the Biblical reference to the original man in Eden. It's just a matter of time and your experience. But I don't blame you for not believing since I want to have things proven to me in great detail as well before I accept things. But your personal lack of experience or doubt doesn't invalidate the realities known to others.

  Anyway, I can confirm for a fact that you are WRONG in this case. But I won't push it....

  Have a nice day.

  JCanon
• 

  mouthy

  So did the Father accept that younger son when he was living that homosexual lifestyle? No. He was considered ???????????????

  Am I missing scripture ????Where does it say he was a homosexuel???
• 

  uriah

  I was excerting my brain cell to think about faith and justice and the like and got to thinking that what we have to do is unfair and that this supposed court case about sovereignty is unjust to humans. Consider:

  Satan is grillions of years old (say) old and experienced in deceiving newbie humans

  Adam and eve a few, 10 (say max) when they 'sinned'

  Right so here we are today suffering for what he did and all this pain and suffering is supposed to be proving that man cannot rule himself.

  Average age of man = 70 years.

  Birth to age of consent 18 (in UK)

  Work your butt off until 65 to provide for family

  then you go all old and dribbly and die a horrible slow death called old age

  You get a pitiful 47 years to try and make your mark on society and show you can rule yourself - mainly at weekends unless you work saturday as well. Hardly a longtime.

  Add to that the illnesses, old age and the demon influence all the troubles in the world 24/7 and the JW's say 'see, we can't rule ourselves.'

  We don't live long enough to see anything through to its conclusion and if you do get close to it you die and some pimple brain comes in your place and thinks he has a better idea, trashes your years of work and experience and so it starts again.

  We will never ever prove we can do anything like what the JW's like to sneer at because we never have a level playing field and we don't live long enough.

  With everything stacked against us as it is, how could any observers say it was a fair test - rather like saying you can't run across that feild without me because I am going to blow your legs off.

  Seems fair to me?

  I rest my case m'lud
• 

  ClassAvenger

  I think that for a JW to accept that salvation is through faith is a big improvement. They would fight it to the death that it was through works and faith, but after they researched they both came to the conclusion that it was through faith only. I think I should move on now that they have accepted this, but I don't know to what to move on. Any ideas?
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  LittleToe

  Perhaps move onto Christ's mediatory role - make it very clear that it's for them personally.
  Much, much later you can pull the rug from under them, as the literature tells them that it's only for the "Anointed".

  Steer clear of the Trinity and even the deity of Christ, at this point. Steer well, well clear. It'll only mire the conversation down.
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  Yerusalyim

  My view...Salvation can not be lost...but it can be given up. We don't surrender free will when we become christians...if we can accept the free gift of Christ we can also reject it.

  In 1 Cor 15:1-2 Paul says:

  1

  1 2 Now I am reminding you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you indeed received and in which you also stand.

  2

  Through it you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

  In Matt 10:22 Jesus himself says:

  You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end 10 will be saved.

  The Writer of 2 Peter reminds us:

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  For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

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  For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down 11 to them.

  Finally, Paul again tells us in 1 Cor 9:

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  8 Do you not know that the runners in the stadium all run in the race, but only one wins the prize? Run so as to win.

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  Every athlete exercises discipline in every way. They do it to win a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one.

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  Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing.

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  No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified. 9

  So while it's true that neither Power nor Principalities...etc can seperate us from the Love of God...we can seperate ourselves by a deliberate choice.