by Fisherman 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ratty - He came in a BMW.
I'm not sure I understand this but it amused me.
Do you mean that the usual arrogant BMW driver is too self important to indicate? That there are no indications of the return?
I can't stand many BMW drivers, same as Merc drivers. To self important to obey the UK Highway Code. (I don't know what the equivalent is in America or other countries).
For example, the Bible is very poetic and says one thing and implies another. Jesus told his disciples in the 1 century to go and make disciples of all the nations and that he was with them until the end of the world but what he also meant or was implying was that (so it is today) Jesus is with his disciples today as they preach and then the end will come, the end of the world or the conclusion of this system of thing. So he returned in 1914 and invisibly with his disciples until when the son of man is revealed.
@EP
For some reason you don't want admit that, excluding Matthew 24:34, wherever Matthew's gospel places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, Jesus invariably is referring to His own evil generation.
LET'S CONSIDER ALL POSSIBLE GENERATIONAL APPLICATIONS.
CHRIST COULD HAVE INTENDED BY VERSE 34:
a. that "all these things" were to happen to the 20th/21st century generation exclusively.
- Impossible: conversation centers on "these stones" which were knocked down in 70 AD.
- Impossible Lu.21:23-24 states that subsequent to great distress, Jews were to be led captive to all nations which occurred immediately after the 70 AD destruction and is not going to happen again.
.
b. that "all these things" were to happen to both the first century generation and the 20th/21st century generation.
- Impossible since the temple no longer exists...and all we have left is its retaining wall as a sorrowful reminder
- Impossible since the Jews are already in all nations.
- Impossible since the great distress Jesus spoke of would not be repeated. "nor ever shall be".
.
c. that "all these things" were to happen to Christ's evil generation exclusively.
Possibility if only if it can be shown that
"all these things" declared before verse 34 actually did happen to the generation Jesus addressed ?
QUESTION: Was Matthew 24: 1 - 35 entirely fulfilled in the first century?
Nope
This was something Christ's generation saw with shock and awe followed by anguish, torment and weeping.
Matthew 26:64 KJV — Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 14:62 KJV — And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
PunkofNice quoted Rattigan350 and said...
Ratty - He came in a BMW."I'm not sure I understand this but it amused me.
Do you mean that the usual arrogant BMW driver is too self important to indicate? That there are no indications of the return?
I can't stand many BMW drivers, same as Merc drivers. To self important to obey the UK Highway Code. (I don't know what the equivalent is in America or other countries)."
😆
What's the difference between blinkers on a BMW and blinkers on a horse?
Blinkers actually serve a purpose on a horse.
Rattigan350 said...
He came in a BMW"
😆
Is Jesus coming in a BMW? What does the Bible really teach? Lol...
"And I saw, and look! a white horse, and the one seated on it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went out conquering and to complete his conquest." (Revelation 6:2)
A horse, not a BMW. There you have it, folks. So, proof positive Jesus does use indicators.😜
"I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords." (Revelation 19:11-16)
@Vanderhoven,
That Jesus is coming again and that there will be a greater tribulation on earth than in the first century is well indicated. Especially in the entire book of Revelation, which was written after the first century destruction of Jerusalem.
@ EP
There is disagreement about when Revelation was written. Some, using external and internal evidence point to the pre-70 era, i.e. pre Jerusalem's destruction.
Be that as it may, let's concentrate on Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
THE OLIVET DISCOURSE - A Collation of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21
TWO JUDGMENTS: The Destruction of the Temple and the Second Coming
The Temple’s Fate:
1 And as He went forth out of the temple, one of His disciples says to Him, “Master, behold, what manner of goodly stones and what manner of buildings and offerings!”
2 And Jesus said to him, Do you see these great buildings? the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.
The Disciple's Questions:
3 And as He sat on the mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,
4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished, and of your coming (parousia) and of the end of the age?”
Beginning Troubles Leading to Jerusalem's Destruction:
5And Jesus answered and said to them, “Take heed that no man lead you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ/I am He’, and ‘the time is at hand’, and will lead many astray.”
6 “And when you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled/terrified, it is necessary for these things to come about first; but the end is not yet/immediately.”
7 Then said He to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom,”
8 “And there will be great earthquakes, and in divers places famines and pestilences; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. But all these things are the beginning of birth pains.”
9 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you, and will persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake, for a testimony to them. Then will they deliver you up to tribulation, and will kill you.”
10 “But you will be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends, and some of you will they cause to be put to death. And then will many stumble, and will deliver up one another, and will hate one another. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake”
11 “And brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated of all men for My Name’s sake.”
12 “And when they lead you to judgment, and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand what you will say, but whatever will be given you in that hour, that speak, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.”
13 “Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer, for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries will not be able to withstand or to gainsay.”
14 “And many false prophets will arise, and will lead many astray, and because iniquity will be multiplied, the love of the many will wax cold.”
15 “But not a hair of your head will perish. 16 In your patient endurance you will win your souls for he who endures to the end, the same will be saved.”
17 “And this gospel of the kingly rule will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then will the end come.”
.
The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Destruction:
18 “When therefore you see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not in the holy place (let him who reads understand), that is to say, when you see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.”
19 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let him who is on the housetop not go down to take out things that are in his house, and let him who is in the field (countryside) not return back to take his cloak.”
20 “For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
21 “But woe to those who are with child and to those who are breast feeding in those days!”
22 And pray that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a Sabbath,”
23 “For then will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the creation which God created, until now, no, nor ever shall be, for there will be great distress on the land, and wrath to this people.”
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No Second Personal Coming (Parousia) During Jerusalem’s Woes:
24 Then if any man shall say to you, ‘Lo, here is the Christ’, or, ‘Here’; believe it not. For there will arise false Christs, and false prophets, and will show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect. But take heed. Behold, I have told you beforehand.”
25 “If therefore they shall say to you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness’, go not forth, ‘Behold, he is in the inner chambers’, believe it not.”
26 “For as the lightning comes forth from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
.
The Onslaught on Jerusalem and its Aftermath:
27 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and on the earth there will be distress of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the billows, men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken,”
28“And then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then will all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”
29 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations, and Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”
30 “Wherever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.”
31 “And He will send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
32 “But when these things begin to come about, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”
33 “Now from the fig tree learn her parable. When her branch is now become tender, and puts forth its leaves, you know that the summer is near, even so you also, when you see all these things, know you that He is near ( the Kingly Rule of God is near), even at the doors.”
34 “Truly I say to you, This generation will not pass away, until all these things are accomplished.”
35 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.”
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The Future Second Coming (Parousia) of Christ and its Distinctiveness:
(Worldwide Event, Normal Times, No Signs Given, That day, Timing impossible to Anticipate, No Running Necessary, Saints Taken)
36 “But of that day and hour knows no one, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.” 37 “And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
38 “For as in those days which were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they knew not until the flood came, and took them all away. So shall be the coming (parousia) of the Son of man.”
39 “Take heed, watch and pray, for you do not know when the time is, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that day come on you suddenly as a snare, for so will it come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.”
40 “But watch you at every season, making supplication, that you may prevail to escape all these things that will come about, and to stand before the Son of man.”
41 “It is as when a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.”
42 “Watch therefore, for you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, whether at eventide, or at midnight, or at cock-crowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say to you I say to all, Watch.”
43 “Then will two men be in the field, one is taken, and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill, one is taken, and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken through.
44 “Therefore you also be ready, for in an hour that you do not think the Son of man is coming.”
There is disagreement about when Revelation was written. Some, using external and internal evidence point to the pre-70 era, i.e. pre Jerusalem's destruction."
So, @Vanderhoven, whether you believe Revelation was written before or after the destruction of Jerusalem, the plagues written about in Revelation didn't take place in the first century. There weren't even 144,000 Christians yet.
That there is a future tribulation is clear in the gospels and Revelation.
@EP
The synoptics only support that the great tribulation Jesus spoke about would be an unrepeatable local event.
Matthew 24:15-21 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
.
Mark 13:14-19 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
14. But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Luke 21:20-24 The Sign to Flee Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction:
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
According to Luke's gospel, the culmination of the great tribulation on Israel would find Jerusalem destroyed, many slaughtered and the survivors led away captive to all nations which happened in 70 AD and will not be repeated at or after Christ's Second coming.
Albert Barnes comments: "Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple." it is time to flee Jerusalem.
Very little is ascribed the word holy in the gospels. God, Jesus, the city and it's temple uniquely qualify. God's holy presence in the temple remained until the death of Christ, when the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom (i.e. from above) exposing the fact that God's holy presence was removed and the temple desolate as Jesus ominous prophetic pronouncement indicated. (see Matthew 23:38)This act of God symbolized the permanent removal of God's presence accompanying the nations rejection of their messiah; Israel's greatest loss made this the worst unrepeatabe disaster possible for Israel. The complete physical destruction of the holy temple (as a witness to the nations) ratified this divine rejection for the entire world to see for all time... to which the Dome of the Rock and the wailing wall continue to attest.
CONCLUSION: The great tribulation had to be a one-time,non-repeatable event in hisory; a fairly local event affecting the Jews in and around Jerusalem and leading to their death or dispersion among the nations. Jesus provided the Sign to Flee and escape Jerusalem’s Tribulation & Destruction: Matthew 24: 18-23 The plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is aptly described in Luke 21: 21-24.
Jesus
knew the tribulation that would come upon His own generation (people
then living). He actually explained that some in His audience would
not taste of death till the Son of Man would come (in judgment
against apostate Israel).
Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some
of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they
have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
He
warned the high priest at His trial what he would see in his own
lifetime.
Mat
26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou
nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mat 26:63
But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto
him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou
be the Christ, the Son of God.
Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him,
Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see
the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the
clouds of heaven.
Barnes
on verse 64 writes: Sitting
on the right hand of power -
That is, of God, called here the Power - equivalent to “the Mighty,
or the Almighty.” It denotes dignity and majesty; for to sit at the
right hand of a prince was the chief place of honor. See the notes at
Mat_20:21.
Coming in the clouds of heaven - See the notes at Matt.
24; 25. The meaning of this is, You shall see “the sign from
heaven” which you have so often demanded; even the Messiah
returning himself “as the sign,” with great glory, to destroy
your city....
He
told the women in His audience on the way to the cross to weep for
themselves and their children.
Luk
23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a
Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross,
that he might bear it after Jesus.
Luk 23:27 And there followed
him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and
lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and
for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in
the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that
never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then
shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the
hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green
tree, what shall be done in the dry?
As
for the time of the end, or the end of the age Clark writes:
End
of the world -
Του αιωνος; or, of the age, viz. the Jewish economy, which
is a frequent accommodated meaning of the word Αιων
Regarding
"the end of the world". Henry writes:
[1.]
Some think, these questions do all point at one and the same thing -
the destruction of the temple, and the period of the Jewish church
and nation, which Christ had himself spoken of as his coming
(Mat_16:28), and which would be the consummation of the age (for so
it may be read), the finishing of that dispensation. Or, they thought
the destruction of the temple must needs be the end of the world. If
that house be laid waste, the world cannot stand; for the Rabbin used
to say that the house of the sanctuary was one of the seven things
for the sake of which the world was made; and they think, if so, the
world will not survive the temple.
[2.] Others think their
question, When shall these things be? refers to the destruction of
Jerusalem, and the other two to the end of the world; or Christ's
coming may refer to his setting up his gospel kingdom, and the end of
the world to the day of judgment. I rather incline to think that
their question looked no further than the event Christ now foretold;
but it appears by other passages, that they had very confused
thoughts of future events; so that perhaps it is not possible to put
any certain construction upon this question of theirs.
I
realize I'm on shaky ground re the literal nature of the 42 months.
But in defense of the prior quoted material I site Barnes:
Shall
they tread under foot forty and two months - Literally,
this would be three years and a half... it is impossible to show,
with any degree of probability, that the city of Jerusalem was
“trampled under foot” by the Romans for the exact space of three
years and a half. Prof. Stuart, who adopts the opinion that it refers
to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Romans, says, indeed, “It is
certain that the invasion of the Romans lasted just about the length
of the period named, until Jerusalem was taken. And although the city
itself was not besieged so long, yet the metropolis in this case, as
in innumerable others in both Testaments, appears to stand for the
country of Judaea.”
In Matthew 24:15 Jesus tells the reader to use discernment regarding the "disgusting thing causing desolation standing in a holy place". Daniel talks about the disgusting thing causing desolation on more than one occasion, and those events are separated by a great deal of time, also making clear that there was more than one fulfillment Jesus was speaking about. Specifically, the timeline of events delineated in Daniel chapters 11 and 12 make clear that the tribulation in our day will be 3 1/2 years long and have specific events occurring at certain points during that time period. Revelation and the gospels give more details on those events.
If you think the tribulation already came and went, then what is it you think he was talking about when he said "Keep on the watch"?
Jesus said "every eye would see him" and even his enemies would have to acknowledge him. Today there are some people on earth that don't even think Jesus ever existed, so obviously that part of Jesus' words hasn't been fulfilled yet. When he comes on the clouds, everyone will know who he is and why he's here. No one will be able to doubt his existence.
We have to keep awake. The GB/FDS is asleep, they think Jesus already came into Kingdom power in 1914, but they are wrong. We have to be ready to announce it when he gets the throne in heaven. We'll know because at that point he'll kick Satan out of heaven, Satan will get the UN all riled up, and when the UN attacks all religious institutions the great tribulation will have begun - at that point we'll know that Jesus has taken power in heaven but there will still be 3 1/2 years from that point before he comes at Armageddon.
We have to be ready to announce it. He told us to "keep on the watch." We are to be his witnesses.
