Did Jesus COME with the clouds of heaven in 1914?

by Fisherman 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Vanderhoven7

  @EP

  The “abomination of desolation” refer to the Roman army surrounding Jerusalem that desolated Jerusalem and the temple

  But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Mark 13:14

  Christians were to flee Judaea to escape this onslaught, hoping and praying for favorable weather conditions and timing elements (not on a Sabbath) which would hinder escape.

  Luke adds the detail of subsequent captivity and deportation of Jewish survivors.

  Luke 21:20-24 KJV — And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

  
  
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  EasyPrompt

  @Vanderhoven, the scriptures say that Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

  
  

  Do you think the fulfillment on "Jerusalem" is only on the literal city?

  
  

  If you think Jesus just meant the literal city of Jerusalem, then do you think the appointed times of the nations is still going on since Jerusalem the literal city has never been free from "Gentiles"? Do you think that the Messiah will come back and rescue the literal Jews from the nations and give then a literal kingdom on earth in the physical nation of Israel?

  
  

  The first century alone was not what Jesus was talking about.

  
  

  Part of the fulfillment was the destruction of the literal temple in Jerusalem. But the trampling of "Jerusalem" and the great tribulation that has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again, is on the figurative "Jerusalem". Jesus wasn't giving that prophecy to warn the literal Jews. The literal Jews didn't listen to him. He was giving the warning to Christians.

  
  

  The trampling of the figurative "Jerusalem" hasn't happened yet. The appointed times of the nations hasn't even begun yet. It will begin soon, and then there will be greater distress than ever in the history of mankind.

  
  

  The conclusion of the appointed times will be 3 1/2 years after it starts. (A time, times and half a time. The same as 42 months mentioned in Revelation. The same as the three and a half times in Daniel.)

  
  

  At the end of the appointed times of the nations, Jesus will come on clouds from heaven with great glory and his enemies will see him. Jesus is "pierced" today when people persecute his followers. When it says "even those who pierced him" will see him, it means they'll know Jesus is coming. They'll see him, just like people saw him go up in the clouds when he went to heaven in the first century.

  
  

  "Flee to the mountains" when you see the UN (the disgusting thing causing desolation) in the vicinity of "Jerusalem". Jehovah and Jesus are our "mountains" - they are our mountainlike refuge, our relationship with them is a stronghold for us.

  
  

  When the UN attacks the religious institutions, Jehovah and Jesus will be our strong tower. There won't be church buildings and church leaders anymore. We will have to show brotherly love to each other and help each other get through. When Jesus said, "Do you love me?" Peter replied, "Lord, I have affection for you." Jesus said, "Shepherd my little lambs."
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  Vanderhoven7

  "Flee to the mountains" when you see the UN (the disgusting thing causing desolation) in the vicinity of "Jerusalem". Jehovah and Jesus are our "mountains" - they are our mountainlike refuge, our relationship with them is a stronghold for us.

  Oh please....

  You can add to scripture and spiritualize all you want. But the context proves that Jesus was warning his disciples when to flee literal Jerusalem, and literal Judaea and what to pray to mitigate the circumstances of their flight to the literal mountains around Pella. And after the onslaught Jerusalem's survivors would be carried off to the surrounding nations. And they were.

  You are claiming that there is a secondary fulfillment to Matthew 24:1-35 which the text absolutely does not support. The temple stones are already removed; the Jews will not be shipped off again to other nations; Jerusalem's severe and literal tribulation would never be repeated (verse 21)

  There is no duel fulfillment possible.

  When is the last time you brought an extra jacket when working on your roof? When is the last time you prayed your flight would not be in winter or on a Sabbath day? Are you praying for nursing mothers because their mobility will be limited.

  I believe that verse 36 and "THAT DAY" signal a change in topic to the second coming (parousia) of Christ. Jesus has already explained what would happen to His own evil generation. Now He contrasts that which would relate to His second coming (parousia) or presence on earth. Notice the contrasts:

  Notice the distinctions between

  Section I (Matt 24:1-35) destruction of Jerusalem

  Section II (Matt 24: 36 - end) Parousia or second coming
  __________ __________________

  Section I Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple

  Section II Worldwide: Lu.21:35

  Section I Abnormal Times: calamities

  Section II Normal Times: Marrying and giving in marriage, working in fields etc.

  Section I Specific signs precede culminating in the surrounding armies around Jerusalem

  Section II No Signs Given, it will come as a complete surprise as it did in Noah's day.

  Section I Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 , they knew exactly when to flee

  Section II Anticipation of the time unknown 24:44 It comes as a surprize

  Section I About vengeance on Jerusalem, Judaea and this people

  Section II comes as a snare on the whole earth

  Section I These Days Mt.24:22

  Section II That Day Mt.24:36

  Section I Flee

  Section II No Running; Saints taken
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  EasyPrompt

  You still didn't answer my question:

  If you think the tribulation already came and went, then what is it you think he was talking about when he said "Keep on the watch"?"
  
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  EasyPrompt

  "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming." (Matthew 24:42)

  
  

  "But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it." (Matthew 24:43-44)

  
  

  "You also, keep ready, because at an hour that you do not think likely, the Son of man is coming." (Luke 12:40)

  
  

  "And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory." (Mark 13:26)

  
  

  "And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." (Luke 21:27)

  
  

  When the Christians fled Jerusalem in the first century, they didn't "see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory." They saw the Roman armies coming with power and glory for men.

  
  

  "But as these things start to occur, stand up straight and lift up your heads, because your deliverance is getting near." (Luke 21:27,28)

  
  

  When the Christians fled Jerusalem in the first century, they didn't have "deliverance". They were fleeing. Fleeing isn't "deliverance".

  
  

  When Jesus visibly comes to the rescue at the end of the great tribulation, that will be deliverance.
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  EasyPrompt

  Dear Vander, my brother...

  
  

  There is so much work to be done in the days ahead shepherding the Lord's sheep. It is good for us to work together. We are all sinners and we are all in need of the mercy of the Lord. He will make things clear at the appointed time as regards all of these scriptural understandings.

  
  

  We agree that Jesus didn't come with the clouds of heaven in 1914. That's something!🙂

  
  

  Love is the most important thing. We have love. The rest will come. We will keep showing love to each other and the Lord's little sheep.

  
  

  Thank you for sharing the Tommy Walker song with me the other day. I love music. Here is another song I like about Jesus. It makes me think about all the sheep that will coming "home" to his embrace in the days ahead.

  
  

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck58d3BMBX0

  
  

  Your sister in the Lord, 💖Audrey
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  Vanderhoven7

  Beautiful rendition Audrey.

  Here is one a little wilder for ya.

  https://youtu.be/Ymkl0t0FOcw
  
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  EasyPrompt

  Fun! I like it🥰
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  Vanderhoven7

  As for the Parousia...

  I can hardly wait for that day! And by faith imagination I visualize it often. Picture it with me if you will; imagine the trumpet of the Lord sounding - and all of humanity being summoned together to witness the most glorious occasion ever – the coronation of the Lord Jesus Christ. We will be so honored; that will be our glory day, our vindication day; For that will be your Saviour, Your Lord and Your God ascending to His rightful throne to be crowned King of Kings and Lord of Lords….to be finally and fully recognized and adored before all mankind.

  And as He ascends, if we but turn our heads for a moment, we’ll realize that we’re surrounded by an innumerable company of people, from all nations, countries and languages; a multitude of the redeemed with gold crowns upon their heads, and wearing pure white robes washed in the blood of the lamb. And as Christ reaches the summit; He will stand before the throne of the universe and stretch forth His nail scarred hands to the multitude of saints He has purchased by His own blood.

  And unable to contain ourselves we will shout:

  “ALL HAIL THE POWER OF JESUS NAME, LET ANGELS PROSTRATE FALL. BRING FORTH THE ROYAL DIADIM AND CROWN HIM LORD OF ALL>

  AND EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW…..

  Oh that will be glory for me.

  I look for that day; I long for that day; I rejoice and exult in its contemplation

  And as sure as I am writing this to you, that day will come.

  Rick Vanderhoven

  For anyone interested: I'm giving a 15 minute talk tomorrow, Sunday, July 30th, live on-line on the issue of interpretation: Exegesis verses Eisegesis - starting at 9:30

  You can zoom in at

  https://us02web.zoom.us/j/6096206831

  
  
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  EasyPrompt

  I wish Zoom was better at synchronizing singing - I bet it would be fun to sing praises with you, Vander!🎶