JW Obession with the trinity (page 2)

slimboyfat

Why wouldn’t JW teaching on the identity if God and Jesus not attract more people than otherwise?

TonusOH

I don't know if it does or doesn't. But if they do not bring up their view of the trinity, or if they do not emphasize it, they might also attract people who might otherwise turn them away.

punkofnice

I was of the impression that the Jobots had invented their own idea of what the churches teach about the 'Trinity' and used that as a sort of straw man argument to slag off Christians.

You know how the Jobots are.......full of their own importance and pomp. Always ready to shout about why they are superior rather than engage in honest discussions. If they think that being pious and sanctimonious will get converts and money for TOMO3 to remain perpetually drunk, they have another thing coming.

Sea Breeze

That is because in Judaism beliefs are not nearly as important as what a person does. In that respect I think Judaism is better than Christianity.

I have to disagree with DJW here.

In order to correct this common view, Jesus three times told Nicodemus that he must be born again.

Belief precedes sin, not the other way around. Jesus is starting to address the sin nature from the inside, not the outside. Christianity is not about trying harder, running faster, of jumping higher. It is not wrong-behavior modification, it is wrong-behavior death.

This is related to the topic because what actually happens when we decide to believe God and everything he says, he gives us a new identity, a new personhood - and a new spirit, which is one of the three parts that make up our beings. We are made in God's image who is also a tri-partite being.

Just so people wouldn't try to foolishly work their way into God's grace through good works, Jesus made it clear that just looking a woman with lust would make you guilty of adultery.... which every Jew knew carried the penalty of death I might add.

by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight - Rom. 3: 20

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Gal. 2: 16

God has made it clear in his word that we are not allowed to work in any way, shape or form for our salvation. If we persist in doing so, we are only racking up more debt that we will personally pay for on Judgment Day.

Now to him who works, wages are not given as a gift, but as a debt. But to him who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness. - Rom. 4: 4-5

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” - Mt. 9: 13

God gives us a choice. In Christianity, God seeks to destroy the sin nature, not simply modify it. We merely decide if we are going to give him permission or not. He does it all.

truth_b_known

Rutherford seemed to make 2 things his life goals -

Trash C.T. Russell
Make the Watchtower stand out amongst all other Christian sects.

Think of all the illogical conclusion drawing used by the Watchtower to cast shade on all sorts of things to make JWs stand out as "no part of this world."

Yes, the doctrine of the trinity was not adopted by Christianity officially until the 4th century CE. Just as Jesus divinity was not adopted until that same time. So, historically speaking, neither the trinity nor the divinity of Jesus were original Christian doctrine.

Western culture has an obsession with authority and order. I have found certain Christians or whole Christian sects have this obsession with "What did the first century Christian's believe?" as if by only replicating the original congregation's practices one can find salvation.

It is better for human society when people do good and avoid doing bad, whether they believe in God or not, than if they have the correct metaphysical (or theological) ideas about God but do bad instead of doing good.

DillusionedJW: You are spot on. The Law of Cause and Effect proves this. However, you have to keep in mind that in Christianity there is only one true, unforgivable sin - disbelief. Anything else a person does that causes harm to the self, others, or both gets an automatic pass if you just believe. It sounds a lot like declassifying government documents by just thinking about it. This is also why people tend to concentrate on the consequences of actions and not their actions themselves.

Phizzy

" neither the trinity nor the divinity of Jesus were original Christian doctrine." The Gospel of John, particularly Chapter One, but throughout, not original Christian doctrine then ? "John" is in no doubt of the Divinity of Christ.

Riley

I don't know if there is one god or two gods or one god in two different forms ( nor do I really care ). I just know the new testament is making reference to old testament language when referring to Christ.

i.e ( the word of the lord appeared ).

( I have seen the glory of the lord ).

I just find it rather ridiculous JW can say with such confidence it is all false with having no real understanding of the New Testament narrative.

The whole thing reminds of me of Peggy Hill going eight seasons of King of the Hill without knowing Nancy Gribble was having an affair with John Redcorn.

truth_b_known

John 1:1 should be translated us thus -

John L. McKenzie (Catholic Biblical scholar) wrote that ho Theos is God the Father, and adds that John 1:1 should be translated "the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being."[41][42] McKenzie, John L. (1965). Dictionary of the Bible. Milwaukee, WI: Bruce. John L. Mckenzie (1995). The Dictionary Of The Bible (reprinted ed.). Touchstone, New York: Simon and Schuster. p. 317. ISBN 9780684819136.

Any translation that reads "the Word was God" is theologically biased.

Historically, the unified Christian church did not believe in either the trinity of the divinity of Jesus until the council of Nicaea in 325CE. Prior to that there were some sects that did and some that did not.

jhine

Truth I'm really not sure about that. Loving your neighbour as yourself is the second most important command and that comes from Jesus .

1 John says

" we know that we have passed from death to life because we love each other ........ dear children let us not love with words or speech but with actions and truth. ......

This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set out hearts at rest in His presence. "

So we can't be horrible to people and get a free pass by just saying the right thing.

As to the Trinity , yes some of the Early Church Fathers believed that when OT people said that they had seen God because the Bible says that no one has seen the Father then they must have seen God the Son .

One of them wrote a whole article on this called something like " A Conversation with Trypho a Jew . " in which he has a conversation with the said ( imaginary ) Trypho about the sightings of God in the OT .

Jan

Riley

Truth B Known

Calling Jesus the " Word " is making reference to old testament.

" For the word of the lord appeared and the lord said "

John 1:1 doesn't matter ( god or a god ) it doesn't matter.

John 1:18 " No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

JW Obession with the trinity

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