"outside of time" argument

by Blotty 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    @Blotty

    I was very interested in your initial study of αιων. I have also been thinking lately about the concepts of time and especially in Revelation. Those terms like "fast", "near", "hour", "day", "month", "year" or "time" or "definite time" are pretty important.
    ***
    So I focused on how "ordinary" people, understood the concept of αιων according to the NT. I found that in looking at the future, they understood it as some very long epoch, almost infinity: "we know from the Law that Christ abides forever" (John 12:34). A slightly different meaning can be found in looking at the past: 'since the beginning of time it has not been heard that, since the birth of the blind, anyone has opened his eyes' (John 9:32) - here we could say poetically: 'as far back as the memory of mankind goes, it has not been heard that, since the birth of the blind, anyone has opened his eyes'.

    Therefore, unless it is clear from the context that αιων is limited (see e.g. "will not see death for ever "John 8:51 = "will not taste death for ever" John 8:52 => which actually means that the person will not be eternally dead, but his state of death will be changed: by resurrection to life. That is why Martha, in her dialogue with Jesus, says of her brother Lazarus that he will be resurrected on the last day, and Jesus confirms it: 'everyone who lives and believes in me will certainly not remain eternally dead' John 11:26; which, again in other words: the αιων of death will end 'on the last day'), it is necessary to add that the αιων somehow (does not) end => ".. will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

    Theologically interesting is the passage in John 14:16 in which Jesus promises that the "parakletos" will be with us "for ever", which in terms of Revelation means that this period too will one day come to an end.

    The apostles' question about when the end of the ages would come (Matt. 24:3), which again assumes that the ages are limited, so this question, I believe, was inspired by the same concept Jesus used in his parable (Matt. 13:39, 40, 49) about destroying the "tares" Satan had planted among the sons of God. And if this age is to have any end, there must be a future age, an idea we find confirmed in Mat 12:32.

    Paul's position is interesting: he uses the term αιων also in the sense of a long age, an epoch, (Paul says in a slight exaggeration that for the sake of a brother weak in the faith he will not eat "meat forever," 1 Cor 8:13) but the idea appears there that this age, this epoch, which will also end, has some content. Hence, it is not surprising to hear his appeal that we should "not have the same scheme" as this αιων (Rom 12:2), but that there should be a continual renewal of our transformation...
    The Αιων, then, has a scheme, a content, and that is the κοσμος (1 Cor 1:20), or the reverse: the κοσμος has its αιων, its age begun.
    When? This is suggested by another writer: by Peter (2 Peter 2:5), when he speaks of the "old κοσμος" which was destroyed by the flood (2 Peter 3:6), by which we may say that the "age" of this "world," this κοσμος, has begun.
    Returning to Paul, the close connection between κοσμος and αιων is demonstrated by Paul in yet another statement, "lest we walk (under the influence of) the age (αιων) of this world (κοσμος)" Eph. 2:2. Why? Because the "scheme" of this κοσμος is changing (1 Cor 7:31). The circle has come full circle.

    Jesus' bodily coming to earth and His death is part of the (slow) end of the age (Heb 9:26 cf. 1 Cor 10:11), but the important point is that the "end" is gradually coming to pass, which is why Paul speaks several times of His "present" age (1 Tim 6:17; 2 Tim 4:10; Tit 2:12) If the Jewish αιων ends in 70 AD, then it is not the eschatological end of the ages, this eschatological age is ongoing (Eph. 1:21) and therefore there must be a future age yet to come. The eschatological αιων endures to its eschatological end, because Satan, the god (θεος with definite article! ) of this age (2 Cor. 4:4), acts upon men, the αιων has its chief ruler (Eph. 2:2) and its, shall we say, subsidiary rulers (1 Cor. 2:6-8).
    ***
    The question then is how do I view Heb 1:2 with this finding? If John says in Rev 15:3 that God Almighty, is the (de facto) king of the ages. And if, God, the King of the Ages, made the ages through Jesus, then what are the ages (plural) in Heb 1:2?
    As I wrote above, I believe there is a close connection between αιων and κοσμος in the case of Heb 1:2. According to the Septuagint and the translation of Gen 2:1, God created κοσμος. He began αιων, which ends with the flood and the destruction of the then world. In righteous Noah and his descendants, in Abraham and others, another αιων continues. And we await the beginning of the end of the eschatological age with the general resurrection and final judgment after the 1000 years of Christ's reign.

    So we can calculate and contemplate various epochs, for example, from Creation to the Flood, from the Flood to Christ, from Christ including the 1000 years of his kingdom to the final judgment and descent, the New Jerusalem of the new heavens and new earth.
    Paul hints a little about these ages in 2 Cor 12:2 and 4 , where he identifies the "third heaven" with "paradise" (v. 4) - see the promise of a symbolic Paradise in Rev 2:7 for all co-regents with Christ.
    My understanding is that there must therefore be three heavens, for Rev 21:1 speaks of a "new heaven", saying that the "first" heaven (and earth) has passed away. At the same time, Rev. 21:2 says that the new Jerusalem came down out of heaven from God. So how can the "new" descend from something that already is? My understanding is that the heavens are cleansed at the latest by the victorious battle of Rev 12:8-12, but at the time, the symbolic earth is still experiencing woe. However, if the first heaven left after the 1000 year reign, then a new, de facto, third "heaven" must descend from the "second" heaven, from God.

    Conclusion: Heb. 1:2 would suggest to me, then, that God has made all the ages and worlds to date through Jesus, and though they have been alienated by Satan, who has taken over the world and its age for the time being (he is the false "heir"), yet the foundation for a new world and a new age has already been laid by the death of Christ... which is why Heb. 1:2 can be written by Paul in the plural of age.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    PetrW

    Finally some [actaully] good scholarship, thank you! I will have a look at your references and get back to you.

  • smiddy3
    smiddy3

    Six pages devoted to 2 maybe 3 or 4 at the most with such long ,long ,long ,post`s ?

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    smiddy3

    (I may well be interpreting your comment wrong)

    idm if its actually constructive - but our "friend"* fails to realise that most like to be descent human beings here, and cite actual authority's on subjects (not other religious counsels that only one denomination considers an authority)

    Its theologically motivated BS that I have a problem with, where the initial post was meant to be a scholarly discussion on the subject at hand - which was then hijacked by someone who ignores "authoritys" in scholarship and goes off things that are still debated in scholarship even today as fact. I would have no problem if they provided actual evidence to support their claims and also were not hypocrites in some departments - but the reality is they are.

    You are welcome to say "that's just your opinion" sure ok I can take that, However I would hope (unlike they) would consider an alternative point of view and look at facts to what they are claiming about only one denomination (keep in mind)

    * while I have nothing against them personally (except being excessively rude and insensitive at one point) their motives have been revealed recently as to why they post - They are not doing it to be constructive or fair, the posts are theologically motivated with no actual sources cited (Ones that are on JW content are actually very misleading and some downright malicious)
    This person claims to be catholic (I cant talk, I don't claim to be anything) but I thought Christians were supposed to be nice even to ones they don't like, did Jesus say go and blast and slander apostates? nope he said the exact opposite.

    Jesus went by reason and common sense (of that time) I'm stuffed if I can find it now - but recently I found a quote from Goodspeed who said Jesus was (paraphrasing) One of the most influential people to ever live. I agree with him, however those influences haven't worn off on this person - instead this would be more likely what Jesus described as (paraphrase): "the spirit of this world"

  • DesirousOfChange
  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    JWs argue that the Father is not called Firstborn, well that's false:

    "The Greek for "firstborn" is prototokos, which means "preeminence" and "eternal preexistence," according to Greek lexicons. It does not mean "first-created." Apart from being untrue linguistically, this heretical interpretation is contradicted in the next two verses, which inform us that Christ "created all things," and that He "is before all things." The Hebrew usage of "firstborn" is also instructive, since it illustrates its meaning as "preeminent." David is called "firstborn" in Ps 89:27, not because he was the literal first child of Jesse (for he was the youngest), but in the sense of his ascendancy to the kingship of Israel. Likewise, Jeremiah 31:9 refers to Ephraim as the firstborn, whereas Manasseh was the first child born (Gen 41:50-52). The nation Israel is called "my firstborn" by God (Ex 4:22). The Jewish rabbinical writers even called God the Father Bekorah Shelolam, meaning "firstborn of all creation," that is, the Creator. This is precisely how St. Paul uses the "firstborn" phraseology in Col 1:15.
    If Jesus created "all things," then He Himself cannot be a thing (i.e., a creation); ergo, He is not created, but eternal. For this very reason, Jehovah's Witnesses (with no justification in the Greek text whatever), add "other" to the passage, in order for Jesus to become a creation, as they imagine, according to their Arian heretical views. Mormons (though not the Book of Mormon) also deny that Jesus was eternal and immutable, so they set forth some of the same fallacious and unbiblical arguments towards that end. As for being "in the beginning" with the Father, this, too, is in an absolutely unique sense, not applicable at all to created human beings"

    Clarke's Colossians 1:15 Bible Commentary:

    "The first-born of every creature - I suppose this phrase to mean the same as that, Philippians 2:9 : God hath given him a name which is above every name; he is as man at the head of all the creation of God; nor can he with any propriety be considered as a creature, having himself created all things, and existed before any thing was made. If it be said that God created him first, and that he, by a delegated power from God, created all things, this is most flatly contradicted by the apostle's reasoning in the 16th and 17th verses. As the Jews term Jehovah בכורו של עולם becoro shel olam, the first-born of all the world, or of all the creation, to signify his having created or produced all things; (see Wolfius in loc.) so Christ is here termed, and the words which follow in the 16th and 17th verses are the proof of this. The phraseology is Jewish; and as they apply it to the supreme Being merely to denote his eternal pre-existence, and to point him out as the cause of all things; it is most evident that St. Paul uses it in the same way, and illustrates his meaning in the following words, which would be absolutely absurd if we could suppose that by the former he intended to convey any idea of the inferiority of Jesus Christ."

    Let's see this in the Talmud:

    "“You shall redeem every firstborn of your sons. They shall not appear before Me empty-handed.” If someone has the good fortune to be a firstborn this is a true distinction. To some degree he shares this distinction with G’d Himself Who is also “a first in the universe.”" (Shemot 34:20)
    So when the apostle Paul called Jesus "the firstborn of creation", it rhymed with Jewish phraseology, in which God was called "firstborn of the world" ('bekoro shel olám' - firstborn-of-the-world; or 'qadmono shel olam'-First-Primordial-of-the-world), the general idea is clear: the Jesus is above all of creation.

    "Bekoro shel olam" (בכורו של עולם) translates to "the firstborn of the world," and it's a term used to denote someone or something as the primordial or foremost of creation.

    "Qadmono shel olam" (קדמונו של עולם) translates to "the Ancient One of the world" or "the Primordial One of the world." In Jewish thought, particularly in Kabbalistic literature, it is often used to refer to God as the Eternal and Primordial Being who precedes all creation.

    Hence the term "בכורו של עולם" (bekoro shel olam) in Hebrew translates to "the firstborn of the world," while "πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως" (prototokos pasēs ktiseōs) in Greek translates to "the firstborn of all creation." These term essentially mean the same thing. Both refer to the concept of the "firstborn" or "preeminent" one of all creation or the world. In Christianity, the Greek phrase is used in the New Testament (Colossians 1:15) to describe Jesus Christ, emphasizing his preeminence. The concept of "firstborn" as a special status can also be found in Jewish thought, with the Hebrew phrase carrying the idea of being the first or preeminent one.

    Paul makes several key statements about the Messiah: "The firstborn of the world." He continues by saying that through Him, all things were made; visible and invisible. Everything was created by Him and for Him. He is before everything, and everything subsists in Him. The overall idea is clear: the Messiah is above all creation.

    When the apostle speaks of the "firstborn of the world" (v.15), he is alluding to the preexistence of the Messiah as God. In Hebrew, it is said "Bekoro shel olam" ("Firstborn of the World"), and it was used in Jewish literature to refer to God. Bahiá ben Asher (13th century), a disciple of Rashba (considered an extraordinary rabbinic authority), in his commentary on the Torah, says of God: "He is the firstborn of the world." In his commentary on Exodus 13:2, Bahiá again refers to God as "the firstborn," interpreting this text as "consecrate to me every firstborn."

    Thus, Paul, fully immersed in his people's culture, when referring to the Messiah with these terms, native to Judaism, is alluding to the preexistence of the Messiah as God -- this fits perfectly with the context; everything was created by Him and for Him. He is before everything, and everything subsists in Him. There could not be a more explicit statement that the universe was created by the Messiah than this one.

    These were expressions specific to the Jewish people that could be immediately recognized by the Jewish community members of the Second Temple period. What must certainly be excluded is that the Messiah, by being considered as the "firstborn of the world," should be included among creatures.

    He is not the first of creation or the first creature that God made because, as v.1.16 says, everything was created by Him, so He cannot be a creature. He cannot, with any propriety, be considered as a creature, having Himself created all things and having existed before anything was made.

    The phrase "firstborn of the world" also cannot be considered the "first creature" of God. To expose the error of this interpretation, we can use King David as an example; he was the firstborn of his brothers (Psalm 89:27), but not the first to be born (1 Sam. 16:1-13). However, he is called "firstborn." Ephraim, the second son of Joseph (Gen. 41:52), is also called the firstborn (Jeremiah 31:9).

    The phraseology "firstborn of the world" is Jewish, and as they apply it to the Supreme Being -- the Infinite, only to denote His eternal preexistence, and to identify Him as the cause of causes. It is more than evident that Paul, as a Jew raised in Jewish and Pharisaic culture and an honored sage of the Jewish people, uses this phraseology in the same way, illustrating its meaning with the following words: everything was created by Him and for Him. He is before everything, and everything subsists in Him. Thus, the interpretation that says that "He is the first creature" or included among creatures is excluded by the statements that followed when it is said of Him that "everything was created in Him, by Him and for Him," and that He is "before everything, and everything subsists in Him" (v.16-17). All these expressions clearly demonstrate that the Son is in a unique rank, outside the series of creatures.

    Another rabbinic parallel, perhaps equivalent to Bekoro shel olam (firstborn of the world), is the term "Qadmono shel olam-First or Primordial of the world," used to refer to God, as did, for example, the 2nd-century Jewish sage Eleazar ben Shimeón (Bereshit Rabá 38.7 on Gn. 11:2). And also in the Zohar, where God is referred to as "Qadmono shel olam-First or Primordial of the world" (Zohar, Lech-Lecha 1.84a). It is quite likely that the apostle Paul, as a Jew immersed in his people's culture, used one of these two Jewish phraseologies in this doctrinal exposition recorded in his letter to the Judeo-Messianic community located in Colossae vv. 1:16; "Qadmono shel Olam-First-Primordial of the world" or “Bekoro shel olam–firstborn of the world." Both are words used to refer to God.

    Reading Paul's key statements about Jesus, as a Jew would have done, completely immersed in his people's culture, such as when he calls Him "firstborn of the world" (bekoro shel olam-firstborn-of-the-world; or Qadmono shel olam-First-Primordial-of-the-world"), clarifies the text's message, which perfectly aligns with Jewish phraseology and ideology and with the entire content of the praise written by the apostle; “everything was created in Him, by Him and for Him,” and He is “before everything, and everything subsists in Him.” The overall idea is clear: the Messiah is above all creation. He is God.

  • Blotty
    Blotty

    This statement is false. considering no actual scholars cite this argument and is nothing more than a fanciful interpretation on the text.

    since no actaul scripture is cited (if even in the bible) by either Clarke or the other quote - the actual argument is questionable at best, and still would not prove anything.

    and now you say "God" refers to just the "The Father"... make up your mind.

    "To expose the error of this interpretation" - All of them were "first" in something... and part of their groups not an exeption

    though preeminent they were still part of their [parents] children (group) or in David's case, kings it sets tem above the rest yes, but not an exception to the rest.

    - sidenote: this is also hypocritical to point out as upon further research the writer of ["Firstborn of the world"] seems to be relying on Jewish mysticism, yet this same person [original poster] has no problem pointing out ones the WT use for being spiritualist etc

    Not to mention this writing for "Firstborn of the world" is so far removed from the original NT writings by approx 150 years (at minimuim) that the meaning to the word "Firstborn" in Greek and Hebrew had most certainly changed by that time

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως] ‘the First-born of all creation.’ The word πρωτότοκος has a twofold parentage:

    (1) Like εἰκών it is closely connected with and taken from the Alexandrian vocabulary of the Logos. The word however which Philo applies to the λόγος is not πρωτότοκος but πρωτόγονος: de Agric. 12 (I. p. 308) προστησάμενος τὸν ὀρθὸν αὐτοῦ λόγον πρωτόγονον ὑίον, de Somn. i. 37 (I. p. 653) ὁ πρωτόγονος αὐτοῦ θεῖος λόγος, de Confus. ling. i. 28 (I. p. 427) σπουδαζέτω κοσμεῖσθαι κατὰ τὸν πρωτόγονον αὐτοῦ λόγον: comp. ib. i. 14 (I. p. 414) τοῦτον πρεσβύτατον υἱὸν ὁ τῶν ὄντων ἀνέτειλε πατήρ, ὃν ἑτέρωθι πρωτόγονον ὠνόμασε: and this designation πρεσβύτατος υἱὸς is several times applied to the λόγος. Again in Quis rer. div. her. § 24 (I. p. 489) the language of Exod. xiii. 2 ἁγίασόν μοι πᾶν πρωτότοκον πρωτογενές κ.τ.λ. is so interpreted as to apply to the Divine Word. These appellations, ‘the first-begotten, the eldest son,’ are given to the Logos by Philo, because in his philosophy it includes the original conception, the archetypal idea, of creation, which was afterwards realised in the material world. Among the early Christian fathers Justin Martyr again and again recognises the application of the term πρωτότοκος to the Word; Apol. i. 23 (p. 68) λόγος αὐτοῦ ὑπάρχων καὶ πρωτότοκος καὶ δύναμις, ib. § 46 (p. 83) τὸν Χριστὸν πρωτότοκον τοῦ Θεοῦ εἶναι ... λόγον ὄντα οὗ πᾶν γένος ἀνθρώπων μετέσχε, ib. § 33 (p. 75 C) τὸν λόγον ὃς καὶ πρωτότοκος τῷ Θεῷ ἐστι. So too Theophilus ad Antol. ii. 22 τοῦτον τὸν λόγον ἐγέννησεν προφορικόν, πρωτότοκον πάσης κτίσεως.

    (2) The word πρωτότοκος had also another not less important link of connexion with the past. The Messianic reference of Ps. lxxxix. 28, ἐγὼ πρωτότοκον θήσομαι αὐτὸν κ.τ.λ., seems to have been generally allowed. So at least it is interpreted by R. Nathan in Shemoth Rabba 19, fol. 118. 4, ‘God said, As I made Jacob a first-born (Exod. iv. 22), so also will I make king Messiah a first-born (Ps. lxxxix. 28).’ Hence ‘the first-born’ ὁ πρωτότοκος (בכור), used absolutely, became a recognised title of Messiah. The way had been paved for this Messianic reference of πρωτότοκος by its prior application to the Israelites, as the prerogative race, Exod. iv. 22 ‘Israel is my son, my first-born’: comp. Psalm. Salom. xviii. 4 ἡ παιδεία σου ἐφ’ ἡμᾶς ὡς υἱὸν πρωτότοκον μονογενῆ, 4 Esdr. vi. 58 ‘nos populus tuus, quem vocasti primogenitum, unigenitum,’ where the combination of the two titles applied in the New Testament to the Son is striking. Here, as elsewhere (see the note on Gal. iii. 16 καὶ τοῖς σπέρμασιν κ.τ.λ.), the terms are transferred from the race to the Messiah, as the representative, the embodiment, of the race.

    As the Person of Christ was the Divine response alike to the philosophical questionings of the Alexandrian Jew and to the patriotic hopes of the Palestinian, these two currents of thought meet in the term πρωτότοκος as applied to our Lord, who is both the true Logos and the true Messiah. For this reason, we may suppose, as well as for others, the Christian Apostles preferred πρωτότοκος to πρωτόγονος, which (as we may infer from Philo) was the favourite term with the Alexandrians, because the former alone would include the Messianic reference as well.

    The main ideas then which the word involves are twofold; the one more directly connected with the Alexandrian conception of the Logos, the other more nearly allied to the Palestinian conception of the Messiah.

    (1) Priority to all creation. In other words it declares the absolute pre-existence of the Son. At first sight it might seem that Christ is here regarded as one, though the earliest, of created things. This interpretation however is not required by the expression itself. The fathers of the fourth century rightly called attention to the fact that the Apostle writes not πρωτόκτιστος, but πρωτότοκος; e.g. Basil, c. Eunom. iv (p. I. p. 292). Much earlier, in Clem. Alex. Exc. Theod. 10 (p. 970), though without any direct reference to this passage, the μονογενὴς καὶ πρωτότοκος is contrasted with the πρωτόκτιστοι, the highest order of angelic beings; and the word πρωτόκτιστος occurs more than once elsewhere in his writings (e.g. Strom. v. 14, p. 699). Nor again does the genitive case necessarily imply that the πρωτότοκος Himself belonged to the κτίσις, as will be shown presently. And if this sense is not required by the words themselves, it is directly excluded by the context. It is inconsistent alike with the universal agency in creation which is ascribed to Him in the words following, ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, and with the absolute pre-existence and self-existence which is claimed for Him just below, αὐτὸς ἔστιν πρὸ πάντων. We may add also that it is irreconcileable with other passages in the Apostolic writings, while it contradicts the fundamental idea of the Christian consciousness. More especially the description πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως must be interpreted in such a way that it is not inconsistent with His other title of μονογενής, unicus, alone of His kind and therefore distinct from created things. The two words express the same eternal fact; but while μονογενής states it in itself, πρωτότοκος places it in relation to the Universe. The correct interpretation is supplied by Justin Martyr, Dial. § 100 (p. 326 D) πρωτότοκον τοῦ Θεοῦ καὶ πρὸ πάντων τῶν κτισμάτων. He does not indeed mention this passage, but it was doubtless in his mind, for he elsewhere uses the very expression πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, Dial. § 85 (p. 311 B), § 138 (p. 367 D); comp. also § 84 (p. 310 B), where the words πρωτότοκος 212τῶν πάντων ποιημάτων occur.

    (2) Sovereignty over all creation. God’s ‘first-born’ is the natural ruler, the acknowledged head, of God’s household. The right of primogeniture appertains to Messiah over all created things. Thus in Ps. lxxxix. 28 after πρωτότοκον θήσομαι αὐτὸν the explanation is added, ὑψηλὸν παρὰ τοῖς βασιλεῦσιν τῆς γῆς, i.e. (as the original implies) ‘above all the kings of the earth.’ In its Messianic reference this secondary idea of sovereignty predominated in the word πρωτότοκος, so that from this point of view πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως would mean ‘Sovereign Lord over all creation by virtue of primogeniture.’ The ἔθηκεν κληρόνομον πάντων of the Apostolic writer (Heb. i. 2) exactly corresponds to the θήσομαι πρωτότοκον of the Psalmist (lxxxix. 28), and doubtless was tacitly intended as a paraphrase and application of this Messianic passage. So again in Heb. xii. 23, ἐκκλησίᾳ πρωτοτόκων, the most probable explanation of the word is that which makes it equivalent to ‘heirs of the kingdom,’ all faithful Christians being ipso facto πρωτότοκοι, because all are kings. Nay, so completely might this idea of dominion by virtue of priority eclipse the primary sense of the term ‘first-born’ in some of its uses, that it is given as a title to God Himself by R. Bechai on the Pentateuch, fol. 124. 4, ‘Who is primogenitus mundi,’ שהוא בכורי של עולם, i.e. ὅς ἐστιν πρωτότοκος τοῦ κόσμου, as it would be rendered in Greek. In this same work again, fol. 74. 4, Exod. xiii. 2 is falsely interpreted so that God is represented as calling Himself ‘primogenitus’: see Schöttgen p. 922. For other instances of secondary uses of בכור in the Old Testament, where the idea of ‘priority of birth’ is over-shadowed by and lost in the idea of ‘pre-eminence,’ see Job xviii. 13 ‘the first-born of death,’ Is. xiv. 30 ‘the first-born of the poor’.

    πάσης κτίσεως ‘of all creation,’ rather than ‘of every created thing.’ The three senses of κτίσις in the New Testament; are (1) creation, as the act of creating, e.g. Rom. i. 20 ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου: (2) creation, as the aggregate of created things, Mark xiii. 19 ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἣν ἔκτισεν ὁ Θεός (where the parallel passage, Matt. xxiv. 21, has ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς κόσμου), Rom. viii. 22 πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις συστενάζει: (3) a creation, a single created thing, a creature, e.g. Rom. viii. 39 οὔτε τις κτίσις ἑτέρα, Heb. iv. 13 οὐκ ἔστιν κτίσις ἀφανής. As κτίσις without the definite article is sometimes used of the created world generally (e.g. Mark xiii. 19), and indeed belongs to the category of anarthrous nouns like κόσμος, γῆ, οὐρανός, etc. (see Winer § xix. p. 149 sq.), it is best taken so here. Indeed πάσης κτίσεως, in the sense of πάντος κτίσματος, would be awkward in this connexion; for πρωτότοκος seems to require either a collective noun, or a plural πασῶν τῶν κτίσεων. In ver. 23 the case is different (see the note there). The anarthrous πᾶσα κτίσις is found in Judith ix. 12 βασιλεῦ πασῆς κτίσεώς σου, while πᾶσα ἡ κτίσις occurs in Judith xvi. 14, Mark xvi. 15, Rom. viii. 22, Clem. Rom. 19, Mart. Polyc. 14. For πᾶς, signifying ‘all,’ and not ‘every,’ when attached to this class of nouns, see Winer § xviii. p. 137.

    The genitive case must be interpreted so as to include the full meaning of πρωτότοκος, as already explained. It will therefore signify: ‘He stands in the relation of πρωτότοκος to all creation,’ i.e. ‘He is the Firstborn, and, as the Firstborn, the absolute Heir and sovereign Lord, of all creation.’ The connexion is the same as in the passage of R. Bechai already quoted, where God is called primogenitus mundi. Another explanation which would connect the genitive with the first part of the compound alone (πρωτό-), comparing Joh. i. 15, 30, πρῶτός μου ἦν, unduly strains the grammar, while it excludes the idea of ‘heirship, sovereignty.’

    The history of the patristic exegesis of this expression is not without a painful interest. All the fathers of the second and third centuries without exception, so far as I have noticed, correctly refer it to the Eternal Word and not to the Incarnate Christ, to the Deity and not to the humanity of our Lord. So Justin l.c., Theophilus l.c., Clement of Alexandria Exc. Theod. 7, 8, 19 (pp. 967, 973), Tertullian adv. Prax. 7, adv. Marc. v. 19, Hippolytus Hær. x. 33, Origen c. Cels. vi. 47, 63, 64, in Ioann. i. § 22 (IV. p. 21), xix. § 5 (p. 305), xxviii. § 14 (p. 392), Cyprian Test. ii. 1, Novatian de Trin. 16, and the Synod of Antioch (Routh’s Rel. Sacr. III. pp. 290, 293). The Arian controversy however gave a different turn to the exegesis of the passage. The Arians fastened upon the expression πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, and drew from it the inference that the Son was a created being. The great use which they made of the text appears from the document in Hilary, Fragm. Hist. Op. II. p. 644. The right answer to this false interpretation we have already seen. Many orthodox fathers however, not satisfied with this, transferred the expression into a new sphere, and maintained that πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως describes the Incarnate Christ. By so doing they thought to cut up the Arian argument by the roots. As a consequence of this interpretation, they were obliged to understand the κτίσις and the κτίζεσθαι in the context of the new spiritual creation, the καινὴ κτίσις of 2 Cor. v. 17, Gal. vi. 15. Thus interpreted, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως here becomes nearly equivalent to πρωτότοκος ἐν πολλοῖς ἀδελφοῖς in Rom. viii. 29. The arguments alleged in favour of this interpretation are mainly twofold: (1) That, if applied to the Divine nature, πρωτότοκος would contradict μονογενὴς which elsewhere describes the nature of the Eternal Son. But those who maintained, and rightly maintained, that πρωτότοκος (Luke ii. 7) did not necessarily imply that the Lord’s mother had other sons, ought not to have been led away by this fallacy. (2) That πρωτότοκος in other passages (e.g. Rom. viii. 29, Rev. i. 5, and just below, ver. 18) is applied to the humanity of Christ. But elsewhere, in Heb. i. 6 ὅταν δὲ πάλιν εἰσαγάγῃ τὸν πρωτότοκον κ.τ.λ., the term must almost necessarily refer to the pre-existence of the Son; and moreover the very point of the Apostle’s language in the text (as will be seen presently) is the parallelism in the two relations of our Lord—His relation to the natural creation, as the Eternal Word, and His relation to the spiritual creation, as the Head of the Church—so that the same word (πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως ver. 15, πρωτότοκος ἐκ τῶν νεκρῶν ver. 18) is studiously used of both. A false exegesis is sure to bring a nemesis on itself. Logical consistency required that this interpretation should be carried farther; and Marcellus, who was never deterred by any considerations of prudence, took this bold step. He extended the principle to the whole context, including even εὶκὼν τοῦ ἀοράτου Θεοῦ, which likewise he interpreted of our Lord’s humanity. In this way a most important Christological passage was transferred into an alien sphere; and the strongest argument against Arianism melted away in the attempt to combat Arianism on false grounds. The criticisms of Eusebius on Marcellus are perfectly just: Eccl. Theol. i. 20 (p. 96) ταῦτα περὶ τῆς θεότητος τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ, κἂν μὴ Μαρκέλλῳ δοκῇ, εἴρηται· οὐ γὰρ ἂν περὶ τῆς σαρκὸς ἂν εἶπεν τοσαῦτα ὁ θεῖος ἀπόστολος κ.τ.λ.; comp. ib. ii. 9 (p. 67), iii. 6 sq. (p. 175), c. Marcell. i. 1 (p. 6), i. 2 (p. 12), ii. 3 (pp. 43, 46 sq., 48). The objections to this interpretation are threefold: (1) It disregards the history of the terms in their connexion with the pre-Christian speculations of Alexandrian Judaism. These however, though directly or indirectly they were present to the minds of the earlier fathers and kept them in the right exegetical path, might very easily have escaped a writer in the fourth century. (2) It shatters the context. To suppose that such expressions as ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα [τὰ] ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ [[τὰ] ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, or τὰ πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ... ἔκτισται, or τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν, refer to the work of the Incarnation, is to strain language in a way which would reduce all theological exegesis to chaos; and yet this, as Marcellus truly saw, is a strictly logical consequence of the interpretation which refers πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως to Christ’s humanity. (3) It takes no account of the cosmogony and angelology of the false teachers against which the Apostle’s exposition here is directed (see above, pp. 101 sq., 110 sq., 181 sq.). This interpretation is given by St Athanasius c. Arian. ii. 62 sq. (I. p. 419 sq.) and appears again in Greg. Nyss. c. Eunom. ii (II. pp. 451–453, 492), ib. iii (II. p. 540–545), de Perf. (III. p. 290 sq.), Cyril Alex. Thes. 25, p. 236 sq., de Trin. Dial. iv. p. 517 sq., vi. p. 625 sq., Anon. Chrysost. Op. VIII. p. 223, appx. (quoted as Chrysostom by Photius Bibl. 277). So too Cyril expresses himself at the Council of Ephesus, Labb. Conc. III. p. 652 (ed. Colet.). St Athanasius indeed does not confine the expression to the condescension (συγκατάβασις) of the Word in the Incarnation, but includes also a prior condescension in the Creation of the world (see Bull Def. Fid. Nic. iii. 9. § 1, with the remarks of Newman Select Treatises of S. Athanasius I. pp. 278, 368 sq.). This double reference however only confuses the exegesis of the passage still further, while theologically it might lead to very serious difficulties. In another work, Expos. Fid. 3 (I. p. 80), he seems to take a truer view of its meaning. St Basil, who to an equally clear appreciation of doctrine generally unites a sounder exegesis than St Athanasius, while mentioning the interpretation which refers the expression to Christ’s human nature, himself prefers explaining it of the Eternal Word; c. Eunom. iv (I. p. 292). Of the Greek commentators on this passage, Chrysostom’s view is not clear; Severianus (Cram. Cat. p. 303) and Theodoret understand it rightly of the Eternal Word; while Theodore of Mopsuestia (Cram. Cat. pp. 306, 308, 309, Rab. Maur. Op. VI. p. 511 sq. ed. Migne) expresses himself very strongly on the opposite side. Like Marcellus, he carries the interpretation consistently into the whole context, explaining ἐν αὐτῷ to refer not to the original creation (κτίσις) but to the moral re-creation (ἀνάκτισις), and referring εἰκών to the Incarnation in the same way. At a later date, when the pressure of an immediate controversy has passed away, the Greek writers generally concur in the earlier and truer interpretation of the expression. Thus John Damascene (de Orthod. Fid. iv. 8, I. p. 258 sq.), Theophylact (ad loc.), and Œcumenius (ad loc.), all explain it of Christ’s Divine Nature. Among Latin writers, there is more diversity of interpretation. While Marius Victorinus (adv. Arium i. 24, p. 1058, ed. Migne), Hilary of Poictiers (Tract. in ii Ps. § 28 sq. I. p. 47 sq. de Trin. viii. 50, II. p. 248 sq.), and Hilary the commentator (ad loc.), take it of the Divine Nature, Augustine (Expos. ad Rom. 56, III. p. 914) and Pelagius (ad loc.) understand it of the Incarnate Christ. This sketch of the history of the interpretation of the expression would not be complete without a reference to another very different explanation. Isidore of Pelusium, Epist. iii. 31 (p. 268), would strike out a new path of interpretation altogether (εἰ καὶ δόξαιμί τισι καινοτέραν ἑρμηνίας ἀνατέμνειν ὁδόν), and for the passive πρωτότοκος suggests reading the active πρωτοτόκος, alluding to the use of this latter word in Homer (Il. xvii. 5 μήτηρ πρωτοτόκος ... οὐ πρὶν εἰδυῖα τόκοιο: comp. Plat. Theæt. 151 C ὥσπερ αἱ πρωτοτόκοι). Thus St Paul is made to say that Christ πρῶτον τετοκέναι, τουτέστι, πεποιηκέναι τὴν κτίσιν.


    216I. 16]

    πάσης κτίσεως· 16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, [τὰ]

    16. ὅτι κ.τ.λ.] We have in this sentence the justification of the title given to the Son in the preceding clause, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως. It must therefore be taken to explain the sense in which this title is used. Thus connected, it shows that the πρωτότοκος Himself is not included in πᾶσα κτίσις; for the expression used is not τὰ ἄλλα or τὰ λοιπά, but τὰ πάντα ἐκτίσθη–words which are absolute and comprehensive, and will admit no exception.

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  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Shemot 34:20

    • להקב"ה שהוא בכורו של עולם
    • lehaqadosh baruch hu shehu bekhoro shel olam
    • "Blessed be He (i.e. God), that He is the firstborn of the world"

    Kli Yakar on Exodus 9:14:5

    • בהקדוש ברוך הוא בכורו של עולם כדאיתא בספר נוה שלום
    • behakadosh baruch hu bekhoro shel olam keda'ita b'sefer noveh shalom
    • "...the Holy One, Blessed be He, the firstborn of the world, as is found in the book 'Nove Shalom'"

    In this context, the phrase "בכורו של עולם" (bekhoro shel olam), translated as "the firstborn of the world," is referring to God. The text seems to be using metaphorical language to describe Pharaoh's defiance against God, who is referred to here as the "firstborn of the world." This text connects the concept of the firstborn to God, referencing Him as the "firstborn of the world." It's not referring to a literal firstborn person but is using the term to emphasize the primacy and preeminence of God.

    Rabbi Bahya ben Asher on Exodus 34:20 in Mikraot Gedolot:

    "Redeem every firstborn of your sons, and do not appear before Me empty-handed – anyone who has the merit of being a firstborn, it is a great virtue, and it is a hint to the Holy One, Blessed be He, that He is the Firstborn of the world. The service of offerings in ancient times was with the firstborns; thus, Jacob was zealous, and Esau the wicked sold [his birthright], despising the service of the Blessed God. Afterward, the firstborns were disqualified by the sin of the Golden Calf, and the Levites were separated in their place so that the service should be with them and not with the firstborns. Even though the service is not with them, they still have virtue and advantage over other people, because they are firstborns. Our Rabbis expounded: anything that is said to be 'Mine' (i.e., belonging to God) is in this world and in the world to come; Israel is [considered as such] in this world and in the world to come, as it is said."

    This passage speaks of the great status of the firstborn and connects it symbolically to God, who is referred to as the "firstborn of the world."

    Klei Yakar on Exodus 9:14

    "The hail struck what was selected first, in retaliation for Pharaoh's insolence toward the Holy One, blessed be He, the Firstborn of the world, as is mentioned in the book 'Naveh Shalom,' and incidentally, the verse informed us about the flax and barley."

    The term "firstborn of the world" in this context likely refers to God's status as the ultimate origin and creator of the universe. In Jewish thought, God is often described as the "first" in the sense that He is preeminent, supreme, and without beginning. The world was created by Him, and everything in existence comes from Him.

    By describing God as the "firstborn of the world," the text may be emphasizing the special status of the firstborn as a reflection or symbol of God's own primacy and sovereignty. Just as the firstborn child has a particular status within a family, God's status as the "firstborn" signifies His unique and unparalleled position in relation to the created world.

    The concept also connects with the theme of redemption, as it may be drawing an analogy between the redemption of the firstborn son in Jewish law and the ultimate redemption of the world by God. In this view, the redemption of the firstborn is not just a legal requirement but carries deeper theological and eschatological significance, reflecting broader themes of divine order, holiness, and redemption.

    The phrase "πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως" from Colossians 1:15 translates to "the firstborn of all creation" and is used in the New Testament to describe Jesus Christ. Both the Jewish concept of God as the "firstborn of the world" and the Christian concept of Christ as the "firstborn of all creation" deal with the notion of primacy and preeminence.

    1. Jewish Concept (Firstborn of the World):

      • Applied to: God, the Creator of the universe.
      • Meaning: Emphasizes God's unique status as the source and origin of all creation. God's being referred to as the "firstborn" symbolizes His supremacy and sovereignty.
      • Theological Implications: This concept underscores the monotheistic belief in one God, who is above all and the source of everything. The status of the firstborn in Jewish law may also be a reflection of this divine attribute.
    2. Christian Concept (the Firstborn of All Creation, Colossians 1:15):

      • Applied to: Jesus Christ.
      • Meaning: This term is part of a larger Christological statement that emphasizes Jesus' preeminence over creation and His unique relationship to God the Father. Being the "firstborn" is understood in the context of primacy and supremacy over all creation.
      • Theological Implications: This concept is deeply rooted in the Christian understanding of the Trinity, where Jesus is considered both distinct from and one with the Father. It asserts Jesus' deity and His unique role in the process of creation and redemption.

    Thus both terms use the metaphor of the "firstborn". In Judaism, it emphasizes God's unique status as Creator, while in Christianity, it speaks to the unique role and nature of Jesus Christ in relation to all creation. Both terms underscore a theme of primacy and supremacy in their respective contexts.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    There are many references to patristic texts in your text. However, you conspicuously omit/do not include a single quote from Irenaeus of Lyons and his extensive works. In his writings (Against All Heresies) the term πρωτοτοκος/primogenitus appears several times but it does nothing to support Trinitarian views. Are you familiar with those passages?

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