The trouble is guys, the GB promised it was Jehovah's PROMISE that the Generation of 1914 would NOT die off before seeing the fullfilment of this system of things. When you say something is Jehovah's PROMISE and it proves untrue ( whether you change the wording later to another time) doesn't matter. The definition of a false prophet in the scripture says the one who says something will come true in My Name but, doesn't - that prophet was not from me. This was Jehovah's way of showing that if a prophesy is stated to happen using his promise, that prophet is NOT from him. So by saying in print for many decades it was Jehovah's PROMISE the generation that wouldn't die off was those living from 1914, can be unexcusable for the GB who agreed to say it as fact. Then instead of admitting the GB was wrong about the situation, they said it was Jehovah's PEOPLE who speculated the 1914 timeframe because, they wanted to try and set a time. The later statement is NO way to explain the overlapping light. How can it be trusted if the Blame is placed on US when, we don't write the light? If anyone can argue THIS isn't what happened, please do!?
1995 generation change
by Gorb 122 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
DesirousOfChange
First, I'm sorry I did not read all of your responses.
Some thought on comments --
There have been sooo many changes attributed to "New Light" that most JWs now see "New Light" as Joe Hoover's direction. I's a good thing instead of a mistake by the Borg. (Great PR work WT)
Most JW's don't know anything has changed. Most JW's do not know what they believe as far as doctrine. Almost NONE of them actually READ the WT or the publications They are spiritually lazy. Those who were NOT lazy, are here. I was working with a fellow elder D2D after the 1995 change and he was still preaching/teaching the OLD doctrine. Even he DID NOT understand the 1995 change.
1995 is 25 years ago. WT never refers to any changes. They just go on like Joe Hoover's Borg has been foretelling The End now for over 100 years (like that is a good thing)! (WTF?) So the VAST MAJORITY of active JW's have no idea that anything has changed.
-
Gorb
@DoC, you are right. It is what it is.
G.
-
slimboyfat
TD I think you’re missing the basic point that “other sheep” who die before the great tribulation were never part of the “great crowd”. This isn’t a new category, there have always been such “other sheep” who will not be part of the “great crowd”. As time goes on more and more “other sheep” die and so the proportion of the “other sheep” who don’t live to become part of the “great crowd gets bigger and bigger. Yet no matter how much time passes there will always be “other sheep” who will become the “great crowd” as they emerge from the great tribulation.
As regards 1935: it used to be taught that the heavenly calling ended in 1935 (or occasionally 1932), and that later additions were only substitutions, however this belief was abandoned in the Watchtower in 2007 w07 5/1 p. 30-31
“In 1935 the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9-15 was understood to be made up of “other sheep,” Christians with an earthly hope, who would appear on the world scene in “the last days” and who as a group would survive Armageddon. (John 10:16; 2 Timothy 3:1; Revelation 21:3, 4) After that year, the thrust of the disciple-making work turned to the gathering in of the great crowd. Hence, especially after 1966 it was believed that the heavenly call ceased in 1935. This seemed to be confirmed when almost all who were baptized after 1935 felt that they had the earthly hope. Thereafter, any called to the heavenly hope were believed to be replacements for anointed Christians who had proved unfaithful.
Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentantly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual to take his place. (Romans 11:17-22) However, the number of genuine anointed ones who have become unfaithful is likely not large. On the other hand, as time has gone by, some Christians baptized after 1935 have had witness borne to them that they have the heavenly hope. (Romans 8:16, 17) Thus, it appears that we cannot set a specific date for when the calling of Christians to the heavenly hope ends.”
-
waton
there will always be “other sheep” who will become the “great crowd” as they emerge from the great tribulation. TD
That is an unlucky pool of people who are in jeopardy to not please wt inc, and die unfaithfully before or during Armageddon. remember too, that
the Great tribulation is cut short to "save flesh." that is the great Crowd, not the anointed, because these want/ have to die to go to heaven. so:
The chosen ones of Math. 24 are the Great Crowd.
-
waton
there will always be “other sheep” who will become the “great crowd” as they emerge from the great tribulation.
TD that is a point that deserves repeating. Only after the great tribulation will it be clear who is part of that crowd in the temple courtyard.
Without a doubt, if one of the anointed unrepentantly falls away, Jehovah does call another individual
That means The new partakers come out of that pool of candidates called "Other sheep", but rev 7 says that the 1444 000 are sealed out of the 12 tribes. so: biblically speaking,
the Great Crowd are the " 12 Tribes of the Israel of God " in the New Covenant.
JWs are "spiritual Israelites" but dont know it, dont touch the New Covenant emblems
-
Vidiot
I've mentioned this before, but I was, weirdly enough, kind of relieved when they changed the Generation teaching.
I was still a believer at the time back then, but by the mid-90s, I was cognizant enough about current events that I realized that some time was probably still needed for all the ducks to line up before the Great Trib trigger was pulled, and I'd grasped that - based on prior (assumed) chronology - time was running out.
I kinda viewed it as the Org having bought some time to still (somehow) be right.
-
waton
the Org having bought some time to still (somehow) be right.
V; wt bought more time still, (with our money), with the overlapping groups of centenarians; 200 years of consecutive life spans, with 2 overlaps of 20 years each (like F Franz) since 1914, gives wt to 2075.
wt just has the "anointed" wrong.
-
TD
Slim,
TD I think you’re missing the basic point that “other sheep” who die before the great tribulation were never part of the “great crowd”.
I disagree on both counts.
The people who were asked to stand up at the D.C. convention in 1935 were told point blank that they were the "great multitude." There was zero equivocation on that point because there didn't need to be.
Again, from 1935, until 1970 it was thought that these people had already come out of the "great tribulation in the sense "...that the great multitude come out from Satan's organization and take their stand on the side of Jehovah during the period of time that elapses from stopping the World War until the day of Armageddon, that is to say, during the time that the "days should be shortened", and during which time period this gospel of the kingdom is preached." (The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 246)
These people were considered to be the "great multitude" because the prophecy was considered to be already fulfilled.
In 1970 the "great tribulation" was relocated to an indeterminate point in the future, (cf. The Watchtower January 15 1970 pp. 52, 53) which relegated these people to "prospective members" of the great crowd in the sense that they were "prospective survivors" of Armageddon. (cf. Survival Into A New Earth p. 80)
In other words, even though Revelation 7:9 "...is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term "great crowd" to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations' attack on false religion." (The Watchtower April 15 1995 p. 31)
And again:
"So someone who wanted to be extremely exacting might restrict the term "great crowd" to persons who have survived the tribulation. But is it necessary to be that restrictive? We do not believe so. Obviously, those who will survive had to have been gathered before "the great tribulation" so that they could qualify for survival. Thus we have applied the term "great crowd" to loyal Christians who at this time serve Jehovah God with the prospect of survival and of their being 'guided to fountains of waters of life' on earth" (The Watchtower August 1 1986 p. 31 Emphasis mine)
Your statement above does not really fit into either of these two scenarios and with respect Slim, I think you are off the mark on several other counts as well.
I pointed out to you that Jehovah's Witnesses consider the "other sheep" and "great crowd" to be virtually synonymous during the Christian Era (i.e. "Other sheep" living during the "time of the end" have the prospect of surviving Armageddon) and your response was to repeat back to me what I had already said about the Pre-Christian Era. I understand very well that the latter is a subset of the former but that is wide of the point:
"Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the Apostle John. This was first explained in the aforementioned convention in Washington, D.C. , when Joseph F Rutherford pointed to those with an earthly hope as "the great multitude." (Isaiah's Prophecy II p. 255 emphasis mine)
The two groups are considered to be identical (or nearly so) in the Christian era inasmuch as the "great crowd" was identified during the "time of the end" which was only supposed to last a generation.
Statements like the one above positively abound in JW literature and the farther back you go, the more black and white they become until you get into the Rutherford era and then they're bombastic.
----
I pointed out to you that Jehovah's Witnesses explicitly tied the pre-1995 understanding of a "generation" to the above idea via the assertion that even those living in 1935 would live to see the end. I gave you a very explicit quote to that effect, which you dismissed as unfounded. I'm sorry. Neither you nor I get to decide that. What the JW's taught and when they taught it is a matter of history at this point.
The question now is if the "great crowd" doctrine has been modified to fit the post-1995 understanding of a "generation."
----
I pointed out to you that 1935 is still considered to be the year the "great crowd" was identified and you have responded back (twice) by pointing out that 1935 has been discarded as the end of the heavenly calling. I don't disagree with you, but that is a different issue entirely.
"Since 1935, Jehovah's Witnesses have thus understood that the great crowd of John's vision is made up of a group of faithful Christians who have the prospect of living forever on earth." (The Watchtower September 2019)
Jehovah's Witnesses still point to 1935 as a "bright flash of light" and a milestone in their development. The 1935 convention is a matter of history at this point and it would take a huge amount of whitewashing to get rid of it.
----
In your most recent reply, you've pointed out to me that here have always been exceptions to this "rule" and I don't disagree with you. The grandparent I mentioned was one of them.
The exact same observation can be made with equal force to the pre-1995 understanding of a "generation", but the JW's never claimed that everyone who was alive in 1914 would live to see the end. The claim was that on the whole, that generation would survive. Accidents, illness, and other forms of untimely death have always been allowed as exceptions to the "rule."
----
You have asserted that those who die before the "great tribulation" are not a new category and I would agree with you as long as those people are exceptions to the "rule." Once it becomes the rule -- Once it becomes apparent that an entire generation of JW's attains neither of the two hopes that JW's teach the Bible holds out for Christians, then we do have a new category. To deny it at that point, would be denial of reality.
----
For what it's worth, I don't disagree with your other common sense observations and believe the JW's will eventually have to modify the "great crowd" teaching accordingly.
If you believe this is happening or has happened, then please give me some references. I've followed this topic pretty closely for years.
-
waton
Once it becomes apparent that an entire generation of JW's attains neither of the two hopes that JW's teach the Bible holds out for Christians, then we do have a new category. To deny it at that point, would be denial of reality.
TD. wt teaches three hopes, foremost: 1) never to die at all, ( --Millions now living will never die! ) since 1918, and repeated in today's wt publications. 2) to die and be resurrected
a) as an immortal spirit or
b) as a citizen of the millennial kingdom. ( "you will be with me in paradise").
to modify the "great crowd" teaching :
here is one way: declaring the Great Crowd to be "the Israel of God", because:
all partakers now, and in the past, (the apostles even) come out of the pool of people with an earthly hope, the 144 000 come out of the 12 tribes.
In 1935 wt told the OS not to partake, now, let John 6 prevail again.