I have not followed all the above doctrinal discussion, but the mid nineties generation change was a massive change in thinking. I did not lose faith immediately but,looking back , it was the start of my independent thinking. I left before year 2000.
1995 generation change
by Gorb 122 Replies latest jw friends
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JohnKG
I was baptized in the convention of that year at the age of 13. Worst mistake of my life.
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Fisherman
TD, I think Slim nailed it. Back in 1935 WT believed that the “other sheep” (Christians with an earthly hope)would also make up the Great Crowd that would survive into the Millennium because it was believed that the end would come in their lifetime. Since the GC is made up of OS, they don’t stop being OS because they are GC. In fact, WT refers to them as GC of OS. Obviously, the millions that died of old age and other causes believing they would live into the Millennium were not part of the GC to begin with since being part of the GC described in Revelation means surviving into the new order. — So if you make it into the Millennium a person is of the GC if the JW dies beforehand, he is OS.
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waton
So if you make it into the Millennium a person is of the GC if the JW dies beforehand, he is OS.
Fm: good bare fact. but also: the Jw that dies beforehand could be just a Sheep. period, one of the
AS, anointed sheep.
current Wt doctrine has it, that the generation of anointed will have to die before Armageddon.
wt's current doctrine does not match Jesus' words. In those, his "generation" dies after Armageddon
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smiddy3
Regardless of what the WT / JW`s claim about how long a generation is we have the Bible account ?
What do you believe the bible ? or the Jehovah`s Witness/Watchtower religion.
When speaking about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem ,he said it would occur in this generation ,and when Jesus would have said this was of course before he died ,and less than 40 years later the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed .
A generation according to Jesus was approx. 50 years give or take a few years in length that is borne out by other Bible verses regarding a generation.
Jehovah`s Witnesses /GB ,came up with an overlapping generation to explain away their failed prophecy regarding 1914.
simple as that.
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waton
A generation according to Jesus was approx. 50 years give or take a few years in length that is borne out by other Bible verses regarding a generation
smiddy, even double that, because his listeners, or that generation, lasted into the 2nd century, like Jesus' contemporary John.
Where do I stand? both the bible and wt doctrine should be exposed for what it is. and their supporters prodded to defend, and thereby expose their flawed arguments. I have seen twice, in close contact, terrible things happen by and to people that believe in falsehoods. hitler and stalin followers. both hindered to see the other side. the truth.
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Fisherman
Waton
“wt's current doctrine does not match Jesus' words.”
That’s just interpretation of Jesus’ word. Maybe WT is right or maybe they will need to change the interpretation. For example, recently WT changed how they interpret prophecy, subtly explaining it in a WT article. According to the article if I recall, not all prophecy has a greater fulfillment, further (and this can subtly affect the interpretation of the Olivette) not all parts of prophecy may have a greater fulfillment. Therefore, using this method as a standard, generation might only apply in 70CE and not in 1914–or maybe it does.
I agree that length of generation is typically 80 years( and wt always had believed this).
But Jesus was very ironic in applying the Bible and what he said and taught was not always clear “cause and effect”, so it is possible that generation he used in the prophecy could have an ironic length or meaning. Take for example his words describing the generation “ by no MEANS pass away” also his words, “ my words will not pass away”. Why would he say that unless he wanted to guarantee the certainty of the prophecy. Given that generation part of the Olivette applies to 1914, at this time JW erasing words in a crossword puzzle written in pencil and plugging in another another interpretation of length of generation or meaning of generation. Safe to conclude that at this time JW don’t know what Jesus meant by generation.
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waton
generation might only apply in 70CE and not in 1914–or maybe it does.
fm: wt applies the generation remark in a second fulfillment, the 1914 generation, our time. that is what we are discussing.
plugging in another another interpretation of length of generation or meaning of generation.
fm: I am not pointing out the wt error in length of the generation, the overlap reality will catch with them by 2075. I am questioning the identity of the 1914 generation, pointing out the error in making it precisely the "anointed'.
The fact is that Jesus is recorded to have said that the generation will pass away after all has occurred, including the greatest disaster in human history,
wt prophecy denies that, the anointed generation passes away before that event.
there is a big difference between before and after.
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Fisherman
Waton you seem to be missing the point. Based on the latest understanding of how some parts of prophecy might not have a greater fulfillment, this could apply to 1914 generation fulfillment.
How long a generation is, is the only issue here because regardless of identity, Last Days shouldn’t reasonably last hundreds of years.
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FFGhost
Last Days shouldn’t reasonably last hundreds of years.
Exactly!
While I agree with TD's stance on 1935 (it's a "plot hole" than has not, and probably cannot, be squared), I think this is a far bigger issue for the WTS.
When it comes to anything remotely complex, most JWs just shrug their shoulders & say, in effect, "well, I don't get it, but surely these guys 'anointed with holy spirit' must have figured it out, so if they say it is so, it is so."
But "the last days" is not hard to fathom. Even the most mentally challenged JWs understand that "last days" must mean a relatively short period of time.
Per current JW doctrine, we've been living in "the last days" for 107 years now. There's maybe a few hundred people on earth who were alive then, but no one would be able to recount clearly their own personal memories from 1914. 1914 is completely, entirely, absolutely a "history book" date - no one alive can recount their own "1914 experiences".
As time moves on - and JWs claim that the "last days" have lasted 120, 130, 150 years - what little credibility the "last days began in 1914" doctrine has left with wither and die. The sense of urgency for preaching will completely evaporate
TL;DR - Jesus & Paul talked about the "last days", not "the last centuries". If the "last days" can last more than one century, why not 2, 3, or 15 centuries?