Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

by hooberus 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

zen nudist

*The last part of John 1:3 says "without him was not anything made that hath been made." This phrase qualifies the "all things" in the first part *of the verse as truely being "all things that were made" This phrase: "without him was not anything made that hath been made" clearly shows *that all things that have been made were made through Christ, not all "other" things.
This in no way says that Jesus himself was not an exception to all things made. you are implying that Jesus and Jehovah are one person, which was considered a hearesy early on... the trinity is three persons in one god, not one person in three modes. Ps110:1 clear shows that David's lord was not the same as Jehovah whom he was with...as THE WORD is not THE GOD who he was with. and Jesus was not THE GOD at who's right hand he stood. etc. demanding that Jesus cannot be seen as part of all things made because of literal reading of words does not mean that the author had any intention in meaning that.--- words trigger experiences they do not contain the meaning. you read into my words your experiences not mine. we share enough common reality and culture to understand each other most of the time... but misunderstanding are very normal. to the reader to whom these words... not anything made that hath been made... were written, what meaning would they get seeing that there is no formal teaching that Jesus was God in that time period?
hooberus

zen said: This in no way says that Jesus himself was not an exception to all things made. you are implying that Jesus and Jehovah are one person, which was considered a hearesy early on... the trinity is three persons in one god, not one person in three modes.

Thr Trinity doctrine teaches that within the one God Jehovah, there are three eternal persons. When I use scriptures to show that Jesus is Jehovah, I am being fully consistent with the Trinty (which teaches that all three persons are Jehovah). The Trinty teaches one God in three persons. Each person is called Jehovah and God, though they are one God Jehovah, yet they are three distinct persons.
Modalism (an ancient heresy) teaches that God exists in the form of only one person who manifests himself at different times as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Modalism teaches that they are one person. I do not believe that they are the same person, or that Jesus is the Father as modalism teaches.
hooberus

Ps110:1 clear shows that David's lord was not the same as Jehovah whom he was with...as THE WORD is not THE GOD who he was with. and Jesus was not THE GOD at who's right hand he stood. etc.

Psalm 110:1 was discussed in Part 8 of this series.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/58955/1.ashx
gumby

When I use scriptures to show that Jesus is Jehovah, I am being fully consistent with the Trinty (which teaches that all three persons are Jehovah). The Trinty teaches one God in three persons. Each person is called Jehovah and God,
. I do not believe that they are the same person, or that Jesus is the Father as modalism teaches.
So each person is Jehovah, but you don't believe Jesus is the father? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
You don't know What you believe, as your statements show. Try golfing I told ya.
Gumby
ellderwho

Zen nudist,
What is your take on 1Cor.8:6.
Who does John the Baptist prepare a way for (Isa.40:3,10) ?
Who did John the Baptist identify as this "one" Jo. 1:23,30 ?
Who are the two spoken of in Jo. 1:18.
If God does not share his glory with anyone (Isa. 42:8) why can Jesus share glory with God in Jo. 17:5?

zen nudist

**What is your take on 1Cor.8:6.

1Cr 8:6

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

--The term Lord was used as a term of respect, a title of slave masters, and of God... but God was generally not used as such.-- TWO beings mentioned, ONE of them is God... THE FATHER. seems clear enough.

**Who does John the Baptist prepare a way for (Isa.40:3,10) ?

**Who did John the Baptist identify as this "one" Jo. 1:23,30 ?

Isa 40:3

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the YHVH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Words are triggers of experiences not containers of meaning... what did the jews understand and think was meant? The concept of a trinity was common among the non-jews, but alien to the jews. It was not uncommon, however for the agent of God to be spoken of as the HAND of God, or for it to be said that God did something when what is meant is that God used someone to do it.

**Who are the two spoken of in Jo. 1:18.

Jhn 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

if you have seen me you have seen the father... contradiction? or two different meanings of SEE?

John 1:18 seem literal, precluding Jesus from being God since many supposedly saw him. while the second is figurative, like father like son, spitting image, likeness etc. [col 1:15]

**If God does not share his glory with anyone (Isa. 42:8) why can Jesus share glory with God in Jo. 17:5?

Isa 42:8

I [am] YHVH: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

note- trinity claims 3 whos and one what... YHVH is one WHO and one WHAT.

context wise this is referring to false god[s] has not relevant to Jesus who is the annoited [christ] King who acts for YHVH and represents him to man, sitting on YHVH's earth throne.

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let my make my position clear, I am only arguing in context of the bible and none of this represents any of my own personal beliefs.

Personally I believe YHVH is an all too human invention and I think the same for Jesus which I find lacks anything but scholarly support for historical existance... if there was a real Jesus, I doubt he was much like the mythology found in the bible.

ellderwho

Zen nudist,
I appreciate your candor.
The term Lord was used as a term of respect, a title of slave masters,
How would you apply this logic to 1Cor.12:3
Words are triggers of experiences not containers of meaning
Does not this line of thinking leave open an array of interpretation as well as emblishment of words?
when what is meant is that God used someone to do it.
According to whom?
Isa.40:3 John prepares a way for Yahweh.
John 1:11 has Jesus coming to His own or own things,possesions, domain.
At what point did humans become Jesus' ownership?
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].
Why would the greek have " the only begotten theos" not son? Esspecially in this case I believe the word God or theos is a container of meaning.
No one wants to go down the slippery slope of the polytheistic view. If this line of thinking is held, one has to reconcile Jesus to "little god" status. However, grammatically not possible in scripture.
If Yahweh is alone to be worshipped and will share his glory with no one, yet we are permitted to give honor, glory, worship and bent knees to the Son, this being possible with polarity in the Godhead.
zen nudist

If Yahweh is alone to be worshipped and will share his glory with no one, yet we are permitted to give honor, glory, worship and bent knees to the Son, this being possible with polarity in the Godhead.
Kings who reigned in the name of YHVH were accorded all of the above, even being called Gods in the psalms as judges who sat upon the life and death judgement seat of YHVH.
as to polytheism, pretending that three persons can be one god just because one claims it so does not make it so. the bible seems quite clear that each person of which only TWO are actual people... is independent of the other. Jesus can die, can be tempted with the possibility of leaving the service of God, is given authority, granted eternal life, given the scroll of power and prophecy from the one on the throne, etc. one of the basic tenents of the trinity is co-equality, yet there is not one verse which shows that God, the father is equal in any way to Jesus who is NEVER called God the son, but rather the son of God --Peter answered and was told this knowledge was of God [accurate].
As to the use of Lord, the bible has many examples where it is use of men as a title of respect and that need not be explored further.
as to when are people used by God and referred to as God acting... many times... YHVH raised up SAVIORS [deliverers], yet YHVH is the ONLY savior/deliverer... its not a contradiction, it is a different in view as to source verse means. even the name Jesus which means Domino's delivers, or YHVH saves/delivers shows that the man Jesus is the means as the christ [the chosen one of god-- a silly term if Jesus were God BTW] but YHVH is the source.
one thing often missed by trinitarians... they never learned of the doctrine of trinity from the bible, they were taught it extra-biblically and then showen evidence for this outside teaching from all manner of OUT OF CONTEXT VERSES, by which I mean that not one of the so called trinitarian proof texts in context were speaking to the nature of God, but were instead about something else entirely... the only verse in the entire NT that seems to teach what and who God is relative to all other god[s] and lord[s] is 1 cor 8:5-6 which states quite clearly that OUR GOD IS THE FATHER and our LORD is JESUS which shows TWO not THREE in charge but only one of them TITLED GOD, the other the ANNOINTED KING.
hooberus

1 Corinthians 8:6 was discussed at some length in Troublesome Trinty Verses Part 1
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/57823/1.ashx
hooberus

Gumby, if you will re-read may statements carefully, you will see that they are consistent. My first paragraph dicusses Trinitarianism, while my second Modalism.
When I said (in the paragraph on Modalism) that I don't believe that they are the same person. I was not saying that I don't believe that Jesus is Jehovah. I was saying that I don't believe that Jesus and the Father are the same person as Modalists teach. I believe that within the one God Jehovah there are three eternal persons each of whom is Jehovah. However each person is a different person.
As for golphing, I can't even spell it, let alone play it!

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 11

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