Any religion that teaches people to kill themselves or others should be banned period!!
Apologists saying that the JWs shouldn't be banned, what the hell!??
by Crazyguy 70 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Doubtfully Yours
Freedom.
DY
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steve2
No, dubs would see it as a failure of their gawd to be behind them. Many will quit right away.
Where is the evidence for this? What about their widespread persecution in Western countries during WW2 when they truly believed the end was imminent and their growth was exponential.
JWs actually expect persecution to increase leading up to the end. They expect Satan's forces to turn against them. That's why they had a couple of Watchtower's in which Witnesses were depicted as gathering for worship in bunkers. Banning them feeds right into that apocalyptic mindset.
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Bungi Bill
this is NOT your grandpa's generation
That may not mean too much. Certain persons claimed that the JWs were going to all fall in a heap after 1975, for that very same reason:
- "Grandpa's generation" after all, was looking forward to a "Heavenly Hope", whereas the pre-1975 lot very much believed they were about to step directly through into a "Paradise Earth".
Well, such predictions were bloody wrong!
Likewise, I believe a ban on the JWs would work no better now than at any other time:
- That lot are a bit like that old song Close the Door, they're Coming though the Window i.e. "The more you slapped them down, the more they multiplied".
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biblexaminer
Where is the evidence for this? What about their widespread persecution in Western countries during WW2 when they truly believed the end was imminent and their growth was exponential.
Steve, as I mentioned in my post,
There's a saying on Wall St. "past performance is not an indicator of future results"
In other words, just because, in the past, it worked like that, is no guaranty that it will work that way now.Also, dubs do "expect persecution to increase leading up to the end" as you say, however, their ability to tolerate it is not the same as it was in yesteryear, when the WT teachings seemed to 'make sense' ...sorta', and had a sense of believability. The "generation teaching" seemed to add up and dubs put confidence in it.
Not so much anymore. The organization, and the hearts of the dubs, has been hallowed out, this being hard to quantify but it is palpable.
Today, dubs are going door to door and not knocking, faking service. This is a huge thing.
I see dubs faking all aspects of dub life. The sincerity level is way low.
I do not see dubs tolerating opposition similar to our granpa's generation.
No sir.
And the persecution they 'expect', according to WT dogma, comes after Christendom goes down in flames. Not before. Dubs today expect a fluffy ride. Their GB exalted ones cannot fail them. Until they do.
No, I think that the common dub knows about all the persecution during WW2 and their thinking is that it was a phase, one that is finished, in the rear view mirror. And today, dubs are headed toward Panda Town.
Today's dubs are like "rice Christians", they got sold the nice panda tract at their front door and joined thinking it's all good.
Nobody had a dub come to their door and say 'hey, want to be persecuted'??
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steve2
Steve, as I mentioned in my post,
There's a saying on Wall St. "past performance is not an indicator of future results"
In other words, just because, in the past, it worked like that, is no guaranty that it will work that way now.Also, dubs do "expect persecution to increase leading up to the end" as you say, however, their ability to tolerate it is not the same as it was in yesteryear, when the WT teachings seemed to 'make sense' ...sorta', and had a sense of believability. The "generation teaching" seemed to add up and dubs put confidence in it.
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My reply:
This is your evidence? Sheesh.
In contrast to your quote is a known effect in which persecution - or its threat - serves as a rallying cry for religious people - especially if they have been led to expect it - as JW organization says about the time of the end.
Show me evidence of JWs as a group facing persecution and not being able to tolerate it. If you have no such evidence - and have to fall back on a quote about human nature from Wall St! - , frame your comment as a hunch or speculation on your part which may or may not prove to have some evidential basis at some future point.
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Scully
One of the backbones of the WTS is its history of growth during times of persecution.
In Thirty Years a Watchtower Slave, Schnell described direct orders from Rutherford for JWs to create social unrest in order to challenge the laws against door-to-door preaching. JWs were arrested for defying Caesar's Law™ and WT lawyers represented these JWs in court in order to "legally defend and establish" the JW religion and its preaching work as legitimate expressions of religious belief, protected under the Constitution of the United States.
Similar behaviours followed in Canada, especially in Quebec under its Premier, Duplessis. These acts of civil disobedience were a direct attack against the Catholic Church's opposition to JW activities. James Penton (before he was DFd from the JWs) compiled a volume of legal victories enjoyed by the WT in Canada, and the growth of the movement in the aftermath.
Every governmental push against Watchtower has resulted in pushback, not just from WT's own legal teams, but from JWs around the world. It makes JWs more entrenched when they feel that they are seeing prophecy fulfilled, when Jesus' words about persecution against his true followers seemingly takes place (even when WT officials are the ones provoking the governments in the first place).
My family started associating with JWs in the early 70s, and the one thing that seemed to tip the scales permanently in favor of the JWs was the outbreak of persecution in Malawi. I was only just in the early grades of elementary school when we were gathered for a Circuit Assembly™ in a school auditorium and heard about the horrible things that JWs were suffering in Malawi. We were asked to write letters to the President of Malawi decrying the persecution of innocent people. What we didn't know was that it was the government's denial of land ownership to Watchtower that was the trigger for Watchtower to forbid JWs from having a 25¢ government issued identification card, which incited further government action against JW citizens.
Meanwhile, in Mexico, Watchtower could not erect Kingdom Halls, but *could* label their properties as "cultural societies". JWs were not permitted to partake in Mexico's military service (just like they were not permitted elsewhere), but individual JWs could pay a bribe to an official to stamp their cartilla to indicate that they had completed their military service, and Watchtower turned a blind eye to this corruption. We never heard about these goings-on that were concurrent with what was happening in Malawi, except to hear them boast about the phenomenal growth of the JWs in Mexico.
Persecution, whether it is real, imagined or manufactured (as is Watchtower's modus operandi), is a fantastic way to bond people to leaders, to get people to side with the 'oppressed' members of their faction, and to rally the troops so to speak. Whipping up the emotions of other JWs ("our poor Brothers™ and Sisters™ in _____ are being arrested and having their property seized") puts the entire JW population on Red Alert that Armageddon™ must be closing in! It's a sign!!
The way to dismantle a group is for outsiders to be indifferent to these groups. When outsiders become indifferent to JWs, JWs become apathetic, as we've seen in the last decade or so, with numbers dwindling, young members leaving and looking for a way to better themselves without the religion.
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Brokeback Watchtower
Well the Russian government is right Watchtower is an extremist organization. I think religious freedom is a good thing if not carried to an extreme(there's that word again). If a religion tells it followers not to support a the country they live in and all loyalty must go to them and they are to refuse life saving blood transfusions which endanger the lives of the people living in that country well I think the government has a right to protect it citizen from such a printing corporation that calls it self a religion. I wish other countries do the same in protecting it citizens from such scams calling themselves a religions and harming people with it demands of complete loyalty.
Why should every Tom Dick and Harry corporation be given special rights just because it calls it self a religion?
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dubstepped
Rainbow Troll nailed it in the first sentence of the first reply to you. It will only breed fanaticism. It will fuel their persecution complex. Heck, they're waiting and praying for the political system to turn on them.
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LongHairGal
CRAZYGUY:
I'm not a fan of any religion. I personally would like to see JWs gone because they are useless in whatever country they live in. They hold people back from education and produce people who are dependent on public assistance, plus they criticize the government and bite the hand that feeds them. I agree with RAINBOW TROLL's solution to tax and regulate them. But, good luck seeing that happen.
BIBLEEXAMINER:
I agree with you that today's JWs are fluff compared to those of years ago. Somehow I just don't see them placidly going along with being arrested and put in a concentration camp for their "beliefs", whatever those are at the moment.