by JH 99 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
JWs actually believe that God will make an identical copy of the person as he or she was at the time of death, complete with memories and all other personality traits unique to that individual. Problem is, the copy is still a copy
Exactly. The dubs really don't believe in a resurrection, but a re-creation.
Cheers, Ozzie
I would hope there would be some kind of exeption to the rule of being resurected exactly as before . I don't think the mentally ill or challenged would like to live that way again . The WTBTS tries to convince it's readers that people are resurected through out the millenial rule of christ but revelation says the second resurection does not take place till after the millenial rule .revelation 20:5 . I would tend to lean toward there being a soul or spirit that only comes to life when the resurection takes place . I also lean toward more of a perfect human resurection rather than the WTBTS view of people taking 1000 yrs to achieve perfection . They seem to be convinced that they will be in charge of educating people in the new system like they are doing today . Just doesn't jive with the bible .
As a dub, I would have argued that if I died before Armageddon I hope I am resurrected with long slender legs and gorgeous self-tanning skin.
As a non-dub I would argue, who gives a flyin' @#$%
heather s.,when I was catholic I did not know much as the j.w s.,but answering to your question that is I can answer to you in few words that they never say much about any things.As a ex catholic,I only new that He was resurrected ,and gon to seat next to his father the God.Even when I have had the chance to read the bible( quite seldom ) I never question any thing because the priest would say always the same words< dear do not worry for such things,live it to God (very close thinking like the j.w ).So with that in mind who would care to ask for more question? so if things have not change to this days,you go the picture. bye arancia
simply well explained,thanks ozzie.arancia
Interesting topic, but AF's argument is circular, Greek logic. The reason it doesn't work is because the concept of what the "ressurrection" is has to conform to God's own reference to what that is and you must go by his own subjective concept of what life is and death is not our own definitions. But here's some BIBLICAL details to throw into the mix.
THE FIRST RESURRECTION: Those who come back in the first "resurrection" are described as "seeds" planted into impefect bodies. That is, these are resurrected into the bodies of other anointed ones during the last days. They "share" that body until the millennium is over followed by Judgment Day and then go to heaven. So in that sense, "life" probably can be defined as the conscious awareness of an identity, after all, our bodies just serve the conscious individual. When one dies the body is left that he was in? No? If God puts you into another body you'll just say "Yiipes, I'm in a different body!" but it's still YOU. Thus YOU are your conscious, "spiritual" self.
1 Cor. 15:35 thus describes the first resurrection: "Nevertheless, someone will says: "How are the dead to be reaised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?" You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain...but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the SEEDS its own body."
So just from this scripture we see a minimalization of the significance of the body to the 'person' being resurrected.
Thus the Bible's essential reference to "life" and the "ressurrection" of that life is the miracle of individual consciousness and that is what is allowed to be brought back; the permission to be "awake" and conscious.
JC
JH now we get into the whole concept of death. As far as we as persons it is the lack of interaction. When alive, we interact with, ourself and the outside world. And we view this as a flow in time. These are our reference points. Death cancels these interactions. Time stops...for the dead. I use sleep as an simple example of this. From the dead persons reference, when brought back, the outside world would be different. Time only works as a reference for the living. I don't think God is bound by our limited concept of dimensional space. Maverick
I would thought God can do anything,he is almighty and he created us.lol. When I treid to say that I would have,muttered and sputtered non-sense,because what he said has a lot of sense to it.
Sometimes I still believe God can do whatever he wants and can do anything......but where is he? Why make himself evidient in Jesus day but not now? We need to have that proof today too just like in Jesus' day..off topic I know Confused...........
Heather
jcanon,
If God places people in the imperfect bodies with annointed ones then does that make them a Twinity? Sorry, couldn't resist the corn.
Arancia,
Thank you for sharing what you didn't learn as a Catholic. I recall the Episcopal Church answering my questions similarly. Trust in the mysteries of God, my child. That is what the Episcopal minister told me when I asked him why he sang "The meek shall inherit the Earth." during every service.
Heather S.
Duncan Idaho gholas! Damn right, Aztec!
: a copy is never the same, however exact it is ... ask anyone who collects anything valuable and they'll tell you the same thing.
Exactly, Simon. BTW, that's the idea of the Star Trek transporter.
IronGland said:
: Phsically after a certain period of time, none of us are 'original' anymore.
Sure we are. We change atom by atom, but there's physical continuity between the old and the new. Physical continuity is the key.
: It's our brain that makes us who we are,
That's right.
: if that is reproduced exactly, down to the quantum state of every atom in my brain at the moment I died, thats resurrection in my book.
Nope. If you reproduce 10 copies of your brain (and we assume that God can reproduce even quantum states exactly -- after all, he's God), how would you choose which one was the "original"?
Marsal said:
: I don't really remember what JWs teach about Jesus' resurrection. Do they teach that he was truly resurrected or that a copy of him was recreated?
They keep their teaching fuzzy enough that it's not possible to say. By doing this they skirt the problem. However, they do say that, in some mysterious manner, God put Jesus 'essence' (my term, not theirs) in the baby in Mary's womb, and then transferred this 'essence' back into spirit form when he "resurrected" Jesus. But if this 'essence' is not "physical" (in the normal way or in the way that the JWs teach that God and others "spirits" have "spiritual bodies", if that makes any sense), then there is no continuity, and so Jesus as a man was a copy of the original, and the "resurrected" Jesus was another copy.
Gumby said:
:: I would have argued that the resurrected person was the same person as the original because God declared it so.
: I have always been under the impression you did not believe in the bible or it's god.
Right. I was talking about when I was a JW and did believe those things. You can also take that to mean that I think the typical JW would eventually get to that view.
: Why would you answer a christian.......according to a christian/biblical view? That is..... unless you meant something apart from the bibles teaching of a resurrection.
"Answer a fool according to his foolishness"?
Seriously, the question was about the JW point of view, which is quite different from the majority Christian view -- which has no "continuity problem" since they believe that continuity is achieved through the "immortal soul". The question wasn't about my point of view, so I refrained from saying that I think the whole concept of resurrection is foolishness.
JH said:
: So if God says that we actually will resurrect, then something didn't die, just like the Devil said.
Exactly.
Maverick said:
: This question came to mind years ago, but I offer a simple assurance that you would be you when resurrected.
But your argument assumes that the Bible really is true. More to the point of this thread, it doesn't answer the questions I raised, since it boils down to an "argument from authority": "Jesus accepted it, and so should we." But this doesn't deal with the fact that even God can't change certain things, like declaring a copy to be an original.
: Jesus would never have allowed himself to be put to death if he knew he was not going to be the same person when brought back to life. We, as humans think in a continuous line. We see it as unbroken. Cause then effect. In quanta, often effect comes before cause.
Only in certain bizarre cases, and only in the currently popular "Copenhagen interpretation" of quantum physics. A number of physicists, spearheaded by the views of David Bohm, don't accept this "effect without cause" interpretation, but view the observed effects as something like "instantaneous action at a distance". So invoking quantum physics does you no good in proving your point.
: I know it does not make sense, but the math does not work any other way.
Yeah, it does.
: Just because something is not intuitive does not make it wrong.
True, but we're not talking about something intuitive here. We're talking about lack of "physical" continuity of physical bodies or spiritual bodies or immortal soul or immortal spirit, or something that provides continuity from one form of being to another. Without that continuity, you have a copy, no matter how perfect.
: We actually live in continuum,
How do you know that? Some theories of physics postulate that at an extremely small scale everything is quantized.
: we create these divisions to make our world work. I see no problem with a break in existence, be it a day or a thousand centuries. You sleep, then you awake, you are still the same, yet the world is different. You tell yourself there was no break, yet the evidence shows there was!
You're mixing up a break in time with a break in physical existence. They ain't the same. You go to sleep, you wake up in the same physical body. You die and your constituent atoms are spread all over creation, and you're out of existence -- gone. A thousand years later God recreates a copy of you, or ten copies of you, and what do you have? One or ten copies.
I guess I'd call it a decady, Heather.
Good points, Thirdson!
A re-creation is exactly right, Ozziepost.
AlanF
