Russia to liquidate Jehovah's Witnesses' organization

by processor 52 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Vidiot

  schnell - "A Nigerian tabloid with 305 Twitter followers..."

  That's funny on multiple levels...
• 

  OrphanCrow

  Fisherman: WT claims around 223 -to be exact.

  Fisherman, I find that very, very difficult to believe.

  According to Forum 18 News Service, since July 20 2016, 5 Jehovah's Witnesses (three cases), one Jehovah's Witness congregation and one Jehovah's Witness elder have been charged.

  July 2016 was the date that new amendments were made to restrict missionary activity.

  Between the amendment's coming into force on 20 July 2016 and 13 January 2017, there were 32 known prosecutions of: two Baptists, five Hare Krishna adherents (one prosecuted twice), five Jehovah's Witnesses (involved in three separate cases), one Buddhist, two Adventists, one Reformed Ukrainian Orthodox bishop, five Pentecostals, four other Protestants (one prosecuted twice), and one village elder. One Jehovah's Witness congregation, one Pentecostal church, the New Apostolic Church's Administrative Centre, and a Salvation Army branch, as well as a Jehovah's Witness elder, have been charged under Part 3.
  Three cases were dropped before reaching court and two more were returned to police or prosecutors by judges and not resubmitted within the stipulated three-day period. Four trials are still underway as of 13 January. Of the 23 trials which have concluded, 18 resulted in conviction and five in acquittal.

  So, for the last 6 months of 2016, there were, at most, five cases that involved the Jehovah's Witnesses (likely only 3 cases)

  Even adding in the two previous years still doesn't raise the Jehovah's Witnesses cases to the level that the WTS claims:

  2014:

  According to available court records, 2014 saw 35 prosecutions of religious believers or their communities (out of nearly 1,000 prosecutions in total) – three under Article 20.2, Part 1, 27 under Part 2, and five under Part 5. These involved 24 Jehovah's Witnesses (including three local religious organisations), two Baptists, one Protestant, one Buddhist, and seven unidentified Christians (five in one case in Barnaul).

  2015:

  Prosecutions in 2015 involved: 83 Jehovah's Witnesses (including two communities), nine Baptists, eight members of the Society for Krishna Consciousness and one Hare Krishna community, six Falun Gong adherents, four members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly known as Mormons - all part of the same case and all acquitted), three Muslims, three Protestants, one Buddhist, and four people of unknown belief affiliation.

  So, according to a source that is not based in New York (Forum 18 is a Christian human rights org based in Norway), the WTS' numbers are way off.

  I am not buying the WTS' claims that there were 223 cases in 2016 when Forum 18 claims that there were only THREE (or maybe 5?) cases that involved JWs during the last 6 months of 2016. That would mean that during the first six months of 2016 there were 220 additional cases. There wasn't.

  If there were, indeed, 223 WT cases in 2016 alone, Forum 18 would have been all over it. They weren't. The WTS is lying.
• 

  Fisherman

  OC, when I first saw the number, I was astounded and at first considered that there must be some error but I did not conclude that WT was lying, I just could not understand how could that number be so. But then I figured that not every case that is heard by said Court needs to be a major case, the Court having the subject matter to hear so many such related cases and so figured that the number was probable.
• 

  Fisherman

  But what I also don't see is how your linked source disproves the number that I posted because you feel that your source "would have been all over it" or would have established the number as true.
  
• 

  OrphanCrow

  Fisherman: ...but I did not conclude that WT was lying

  It is hard to wrap your head around, isn't it? So many years of buying into the WT's numbers game that it is difficult to examine the veracity of the WT's claims to numbers. A person's brain gets programmed to accept WT "facts" just because those "facts" are presented as a numerical value.

  The WT lies about their history. They lie about their doctrine changes. They lie about protecting children. They lie about numbers. And they also lie about their legal record.

  The Watchtower lies. Their lips are moving.

  *to add (sorry - cross posting)

  But what I also don't see is how your linked source disproves the number that I posted because you feel that your source "would have been all over it" or would have established the number as true.

  I dunno...I guess it has been because I have been following Forum 18's news service for the past few years. They present credible evidence in their articles. I have no reason to disbelieve what they report. Forum 18 is about protecting freedom of worship - they highlight human rights abuses - if the WT had that many cases, it would bolster the Forum 18's position so of course they would have reported on those "missing" cases
  
  
• 

  Fisherman

  OC, are you saying that proof of WT claims (assuming the figure is correct and theirs) regarding the actual number of cases adjudicated by the ECHR in 2016 involving JW, discredits the credibility of your source?

  (And by the the way, thanks for the link.)
• 

  Vidiot

  OrphanCrow - "It is hard to wrap your head around, isn't it?"

  Hoo boy, you said it.

  Even well into my fade, I had trouble with it. I'd use other descriptors like "flawed", "mistaken", or "inaccurate".

  It was years before I felt confident in even simply using the word "wrong", let alone "lie".
• 

  OrphanCrow

  Fisherman: OC, are you saying that proof of WT claims (assuming the figure is correct and theirs) regarding the actual number of cases adjudicated by the ECHR in 2016 involving JW, discredits the credibility of your source?
  (And by the the way, thanks for the link.)

  You are welcome, Fisherman. Forum 18 is a good site for checking on the details of what is happening with various religious sects in Russia and it shows that the JW's claim to persecution is not an exclusive domain.

  I am not sure exactly what you are getting at though, Fisherman. What I am saying is that what the WT claims and what external sources show differs. I regard WT "claims" as just that - claims only.

  As far as the number of 223 cases in 2016 alone goes, the disparity between what Forum 18 reports and the number given by the WT is significant. They differ enough to throw the WT claim into doubt. It could be that the "223" number is referring to the total number of charges rather than cases and I would make a guess that it is over a longer period of time than just 2016.

  The WT has a habit of presenting their "facts"/numbers in such a way that the number is correct but it has been presented in a way that conveys a different impression than what the number actually means.
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  OrphanCrow

  Ah...Fisherman, I think I have misinterpreted initially what you had said. This is my mistake.

  You had said:

  Winning hundreds of cases in 2016 alone in the ECHR ! --the WT will also win this case; If Russia will follow the ruling and what they will do remains to be seen.

  Because this was thread about Russia, I had taken the 223 number for Russia alone and instead, that number is for the cases heard in the European Court of Human Rights.

  My figures and sources were about the cases in Russia alone.

  I will read up on the ECHR.

  *I need another coffee
  
  
  
• 

  kpop

  I'm sorry but I must side with Russia on this because they see the JW for what it is- a cult, not a normal religion and for that Russia is 100% right. This has nothing to do with free speech and everything to do with stopping cults not stopping religion or free speech because cults are damaging to families and communities!