Abaddon the destroyer is he Jesus?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  ExBethelitenowPIMA

  Rev 9:11 the Angel with the key to the abyss is called Abaddon which means destroyer.

  The cross references show JW doctrine teaches he is Jesus himself using the account in Luke where Jesus got the demons out of that girl and they said don’t throw us into the abyss

  and Revalation 20:1 shows an Angel with the key to the Abyss.

  Either Watchtower are right and it’s Jesus or there are more than one Angel with the key to the Abyss.

  If it is Jesus the destroyer of souls it sounds like Conan the destroyer.

  from the research guide-Abaddon, the angel of the abyss​—who is he?

  At Revelation 9:11, however, the word “Abaddon” is used as the name of “the angel of the abyss.” The corresponding Greek name Apollyon means “Destroyer.” In the 19th century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to individuals such as Emperor Vespasian, Muhammad, and even Napoleon, and the angel was generally regarded as “satanic.” It should be noted, however, that at Revelation 20:1-3 the angel having “the key of the abyss” is shown to be God’s representative from heaven, and rather than being “satanic,” he binds and hurls Satan into the abyss. Commenting on Revelation 9:11, The Interpreter’s Bible says: “Abaddon, however, is an angel not of Satan but of God, performing his work of destruction at God’s bidding.”

  In the Hebrew scriptures just considered, it is evident that ʼavad·dohnʹ is paralleled with Sheol and death. At Revelation 1:18 we find Christ Jesus stating: “I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” His power with regard to the abyss is shown at Luke 8:31. That he has destroying power, including the power of destruction over Satan, is evident from Hebrews 2:14, which says that Jesus partook of blood and flesh in order that “through his death he might bring to nothing the one having the means to cause death, that is, the Devil.” At Revelation 19:11-16 he is clearly represented as God’s appointed Destroyer or Executioner.​—See APOLLYON.
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  EasyPrompt

  Abaddon is Satan.

  The locusts are the UN.

  The UN will destroy religious institutions, including the institution of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Judas was called "the son of destruction" and Achan was called "the son of destruction". Satan is Abaddon and Apollyon. The locusts in Joel were the nations that Jehovah allowed to attack "Jehovah's name people" (and others) for their unfaithfulness.

  The scriptures show that the locusts in Revelation have Satan as their leader. They are the UN and their associates of the nations who will attack all religious institutions. The worst part of the attack will be the first five months of the great tribulation. (The entire tribulation is 3 1/2 years, but the first five months will be the worst for Jehovah's name people. The attack starts at the Bethels.)

  Ezekiel 9:6, Revelations 9:5,10
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  Vidqun

  ExBethelite, I guess one can say with certainty that Apollyon/Abaddon does not refer to Jesus, if you follow the analysis of the original words. I agree with EasyPrompt. Satan is a good contender for the title. Here's a few thoughts on the abyss.

  The abyss can be favourably compared to the realm of the dead (Rom. 10:7; cf. Luke 8:31). In the abyss = inactive. Out of the abyss = active. God allows the beast to come up from the abyss (Rev. 17:8, 9, 11; cf. 11:7, 8). As part of the fifth trumpet blast, a star (or angel) unlocks the abyss, unleashing a locust plague to torment mankind. The angel does not control the locusts. Apollyon/Abaddon is their king. These are the soldiers of the beast, sent out to control and subdue the masses (Rev. 9:1-11; cf. 11:7, 8). Later Satan the Devil would be sealed in this abyss (of inactivity) for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).
  

  EasyPrompt, I agree with the first part of your explanation, but you lost me with the second part. Why would the locust-scorpions attack religious institutions, starting with the Bethels? They don't distinguish the religious or non-religious. The only ones that's exempt are those with God's seal (Rev. 9:4). All others will be tormented, perhaps by taking away their freedom? [[βασανιστής, οῦ, ὁ torturer, jailer Mt 18:34 uses βασανίζω of the treatment of a debtor from whom everything possible is to be exacted.* See BDAG.]] This will only take place for five months as the fifth trumpet or first woe. According to my reckoning this is part of the first half of the tribulation. Where do you get your 3 1/2 years?

  Apollyon: Rev. 9:11(the locust-scorpions from the abyss) ἔχουσιν ἐπʼ αὐτῶν βασιλέα τὸν ἄγγελον τῆς ἀβύσσου, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἐβραϊστὶ Ἀβαδδών, καὶ ἐν τῇ Ἐλληνικῇ ὄνομα ἔχει Ἀπολλύων. Ἀπολλύων is a translation and personification of אֲבַדּוֹן (→ Ἀβαδδών, 4:11) “destruction,” for which the LXX uses → ἀπώλεια. It means the Exterminator or Destroyer. As seen, from the time of Grotius it has usually been taken as a play on Apollo, which is the actual reading in Syph.[1] From the time of the victory of Octavian at Actium under the temple of Apollo which was later enlarged by him, Apollo was especially regarded as the god of the empire. The locust is his creature. However, such an explanation muddies the water. What should be kept in mind is that the book of Revelation was written by a Jew and has a predominantly Semitic background. The origin of the Hebrew name Abaddon should bring us closer to what John meant.
  Abaddon: Αβαδδών, ὁ indeclinable אֲבַדּוֹן) Prov. 15:11; Ps. 87:12; Theodotion Job 26:6; 28:22=ἀπώλεια LXX). Abaddon, name of the king of the abyss Rev. 9:11, explained as Ἀπολλύων, i.e., Destroyer ) cp. (אָבַד. With this nuance of ʾabhadh we come to the most important noun from this root, ʾabhaddon (with its by-form ʾabhaddoh). Very rarely does this word mean “destruction” (Job 31:12; perhaps also in 1QM fragm. 9:3). Much more often in the Old Testament, and particularly in Wisdom Literature, it means the “place of destruction,” i.e., the Underworld. However, in Rev. 9:11 it is used as a personal name, so this meaning should be ruled out. See BDAG.
  ʾabhadh is used in a more general way for destruction of enemies in political and religious conflicts (2 Kings 10:19; 11:1; 19:18; Jer. 46:8; cf. also Jer. 40:15 and the Mesha Stela, cf. H. Donner-W. Röllig, Kanaanäische und aramäische Inschriften, 3 vols. (Wiesbaden, 21966–69, 31971–76), and for ill-treatment of the people by kings and princes (Jer. 23:1; Ezek. 22:27)—all in the piel; cf. the qal in Jer. 10:15, and the Aramaic peal in Jer. 10:11).
  Finally, ʾabhadh in the qal exhibits a variety of nuances: Quite often the qal form means simply “to die.” However, the context rules this meaning out. The sting of the locust-scorpions cause pain but do not kill. Of greater theological significance is the use of this word in prophetic texts where the verb describes how in critical times, when evil increases, good attributes and positive ideas vanish (truth: Jer. 7:28; knowledge of the law: Jer. 18:18; Ezek. 7:26; wisdom and good counsel: Is. 29:14; Jer. 18:18; 49:7; Ezek. 7:26; cf. Ps. 146:4; Deut. 32:28 and Damascus document A, i.e., CD A 5:17; righteousness: Mic. 7:2; courage: Jer. 4:9; etc.). The two plainly stereotyped expressions “the place of refuge (manos) is lost,” i.e., there is no place of escape (Am. 2:14; Jer. 25:35; cf. Ps. 142:5[4]; Job 11:20), and “hope (→תקוה tiqvāh) is lost” (Ezek. 19:5; 37:11; cf. Ps. 9:19[18]; Job 8:13; Sir. 41:2; 11QPsa 22:8; etc.) should also be included here.[3]

  [1] Syph = Syro-Philoxenian Version, derives its name from Philoxenus or Xenayas, Bishop of Hierapolis in Syria, A. D. 488 — 518, who employed his rural bishop Polycarp to translate the New Testament from the original Greek into the vernacular Syriac of that time.

  [2] A. Oepke (1964–). ἀπόλλυμι, ἀπώλεια, Ἀπολλύων. G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 1, p. 397). Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.

  [3] B. Otzen (1977). אָבַד. G. J. Botterweck & H. Ringgren (Eds.), J. T. Willis (Translated), Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament (Revised Edition, Vol. 1, pp. 20–23). Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
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  EasyPrompt

  Hi, @Vidqun🙂...

  
  

  "Why would the locust-scorpions attack religious institutions, starting with the Bethels? They don't distinguish the religious or non-religious."

  
  

  Locusts are hungry and "fleshly". The religious institutions have amassed wealth. It is the physical, visible wealth of the different religious institutions that the locusts will attack, similar to what the locusts in Joel attacked. As far as the JWborg is concerned, that would mean real estate holdings, investments, the Bethels, the KHs, etc.

  
  

  "The only ones that's exempt are those with God's seal (Rev. 9:4)."
  

  
  

  Ezekiel also talks about those who are marked for survival. Ezekiel chapters 8 and 9 describes some nasty things going on among those who claim to be God's Name people. In Ezekiel 9:4 Jehovah says, “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the city." This marking is not about surviving Armageddon. It's not talking about among the nations. It's specific. It's about those among God's Name people who are disturbed by the nasty false religious stuff and the hypocritical reproachful conduct of those who claim to be also worshippers of Jehovah.
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  EasyPrompt

  Where do you get your 3 1/2 years?"
  

  
  
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  Vidqun

  EasyPrompt, don't you think God works in sevens? 3 1/2 years + 3 1/2 years = 7 years. 2300 evening-mornings is not equal to 3 1/2 years, no matter how you work it out. Take also as an example the period mentioned at Daniel 12:11, 12. 1290 day + 1335 days = 2625 days. I view it as follows:

  Daniel (7:24, 25[1]; 12:7[2]) mentions “a time, times and half a time.” Revelation (11:2, 3; 12:6, 14[3]) breaks it up into different modes of time: Time, times and half a time = 3½ years = 42 months = 1,260 days. From there, 7 years = 84 months = 2,520 days (cf. 4:25). Thus, 1 year = 360 days. All the days, times and weeks found in the books of Daniel and Revelation are connected to a half or full Heptad. Time, times and half a time = Half a Heptad. This means unfinished business (cf. Dan. 9:27; Rev. 11:11).[4]

  “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the city."

  Don't think you should apply this to the great tribulation as above sentence indicates.
  
  

  
  

  ---

  [1] Aramaic year:) עִדָּןJArm., Syr., Heb. (מוֹעֵד Da 725, Sept. ἔτο῍ Da 416.32.34, Josephus Antiquities xii 7: 6 :: Vulgate tempus/tempora, so also Sept. καιρό῍καιροί 725 127; שִׁבְעָה עִדָּנִין Da 413.20.22.29, וּפְלַג עִדָּן עַד עִדָּן וְעִדָּנִין 725 meaning three and a half years (Bentzen 34, 67; Plöger KAT xviii: 105; see also 115f, 143). † See HALOT.

  [2] Hebrew year: מוֹעֵד: מֹעֲדִיםוָחֵצִילְם׳ a time, times and a half Da 127 )as BArm. עִדָּן 2, meaning a year(. See HALOT.

  [3] The expr. καιρὸν καὶ καιροὺς κ. ἥμισυ καιροῦ also belongs to the eschatol. vocab.; it means the apocalyptic time of 1 + 2 + ½ = 3½ years. See BDAG. καιρόν καί καιρούς καί ἥμισυ καιροῦ, a year and two years and six months (A. V. a time, and times, and half a time; cf. Winer’s Grammar, sec. 27, 4), Rev. 12:14 (cf. 6; from Dan. 7:25; 12:7). See Thayer.

  [4] Gabriele Boccaccini, in the article “The Solar Calendars of Daniel and Enoch,” suggests that the writer of Daniel used a solar calendar, consisting of a thirty-day month x 12 = 360 day year + 4 intercalary times (i.e., the equinoxes and solstices) that were added between seasons but not counted in the reckoning of the days of the year. See The Book of Daniel: Composition and Reception. Volume 2. Edited by J. J. Collins and P. W. Flint, Brill, 2001, pp. 312-328.
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  EasyPrompt

  "It was not because you were the most numerous of all the peoples that Jehovah showed affection for you and chose you, for you were the smallest of all the peoples." (Deuteronomy 7:7)

  
  

  There is no group that is too small to be noticed by Jehovah. Any group that claims to represent Him is certainly noticed by Him.

  
  

  "Aha! the As·syrʹi·an,

  The rod to express my anger

  And the staff in their hand for my denunciation!

  I will send him against an apostate nation,

  Against the people who infuriated me;

  I will command him to take much spoil and much plunder

  And to trample them like mud in the streets.

  But he will not be inclined this way

  And his heart will not scheme this way;

  For it is in his heart to annihilate,

  To cut off many nations, not a few."

  (Isaiah 10:5-7)

  
  

  Israel was a small nation, and from the point of view of the nations, perhaps there were other nations from which the Assyrians could have stripped more spoil, but Jehovah put it into the heart of the Assyrians to go against "an apostate nation."

  
  

  The locusts of Revelation only attack for five months, about 150 days.

  
  

  Daniel 8:13,14 says "And an army was given over, together with the constant feature, because of transgression; and it kept throwing truth to the earth, and it acted and had success. And I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one speaking: “How long will the vision of the constant feature and of the transgression causing desolation continue, to make both the holy place and the army things to trample on?” So he said to me: “Until 2,300 evenings and mornings; and the holy place will certainly be restored to its right condition.”

  
  

  One evening plus one morning equals one day. 2,300 evenings and mornings is the same as 1,150 mornings plus 1,150 evenings, which is the same as 1,150 days.

  
  

  As far as the timeline of the great tribulation goes, it seems that after Satan is cast out of heaven and riles up the UN, the initial part of the attack on religion will be very harsh for 150 days. By the 1,150th day, Jesus' angels will have refined the Christian congregation. (Removing the weeds and leaven, gathering the wheat together.) The tribulation will still last the full 3 1/2 years. The UN will rule as the dominant world power for 3 1/2 years, as the feet of the Daniel chapter 2 dream image.

  
  
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  EasyPrompt

  Evening is half a day.

  Morning is half a day.

  
  

  2,300 x (half a day) = 1,150 days

  
  

  (Daniel 8:13,14, the 2,300 evenings and mornings is 1,150 days.)

  
  

  The 1,150 days is just a point during the 3 1/2 years.
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  Vidqun

  One evening plus one morning equals one day. 2,300 evenings and mornings is the same as 1,150 mornings plus 1,150 evenings, which is the same as 1,150 days.

  One problem with your interpretation. There's an evening and a morning, but there is no afternoon. So, here's another way to look at it. One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days:

  Vision of the 2,300 evening-morning: The small horn/fierce king[1] is to act arrogantly against the Prince of the army,[2] from whom the continuity is to be removed and whose sanctuary is to be thrown down (v. 11).[3] An army is defeated and the continuity disrupted (v. 12)[4] because of cooperation between the small horn/fierce king (vv. 9, 23) and the transgression causing desolation (v. 13).[5] Only after 2,300 evening-morning time units[6] (v. 14a, 26) will the holy place or sanctuary be restored to its rightful state, meaning the leadership of God’s people will be reinstated and true worship re-established (v. 14b).[7]

  
  

  ---

  [1] These represent the Anglo-American world power, later identified as King of the South (cf. Dan. 8:9, 10, 19; 11:27-40). Again, the described course of events is from the perspective of King of the South (Dan. 11:40; cf. Rev. 13:11-13). As master of intrigue he will be removing the constant feature by cunning legal strategy, shrewdness and deception (Dan. 8:23-25; cf. Ps. 94:20).

  [2] This means he will be taking on the Prince of the army, Jesus Christ himself. There can only be one outcome (Rev. 16:14, 16; 19:11-21; cf. Dan 8:25).

  [3] Constant [feature]: The continuity (BDBLex) or regular offering (HALOT) here means the good deeds of God’s people during the Tribulation period (Rom. 10:10-15; cf. Hebr. 13:10-16). The sanctuary means the leaders of God’s people. Their freedom will be curtailed and their good works and holy sacrifices will be trampled upon (1 Cor. 3:16, 17; Eph. 2:21, 22; 1 Pet. 2:5-9; cf. Rev. 11:2).

  [4] This is God’s army of evangelizers bringing the good news of the Messianic kingdom to the nations (cf. Ps. 68:11; 110:3). God temporarily abandons the army and sanctuary because of transgression, allowing them to be overrun by those who oppose true worship.

  [5] This corrupt entity, the UN, is a transgressor of cultic law, thus God’s Law (HALOT). The transgression causing desolation lives up to its name, causing physical and spiritual ruin (Rev. 13:16, 17; 14:9-11; cf. Dan. 8:12; Is. 24:19, 20; 59:12-15; Lam. 3:8, 9, 42-45). In the near future all such corrupting influences are to be removed along with the transgressors (Dan. 8:13, 23; Rev. 17:13, 14; 19:11-21; cf. Dan. 9:24).

  [6] Evening-morning: 1) The two nouns are singular. 2) Lit. an “evening-morning” time unit (not time, year or day), resulting in a most unusual time scale. 3) Evening in Hebrew means when the sun goes down. Morning means first light, when the sun comes up, until midday when the sun is at its zenith. Afternoon, when the day starts to fade, is not part of the equation. 4) One evening-morning is therefore 18/24 hours = ¾ of a day. 2300 evening-morning x ¾ = 1725 days. This literal interpretation does not deviate from Hebrew usage (Ex. 12:6, 10; 16:8-13; 27:21a; cf. 1 Kings 17:6).

  [7] Then the sanctuary will be cleansed (NKJ) or reconsecrated (NIV) according to Ezek. 43. After having been trampled by the nations, those taking the lead in true worship of the Almighty God will be reinstated.
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  EasyPrompt

  Daniel 8:23-25

  
  

  "And in the final part of their kingdom, as the transgressors act to a completion, a fierce-looking king who understands ambiguous sayings will stand up."

  
  

  The UN leader is the king referred to here.

  
  

  "His power will become great, but not through his own power. He will bring ruin in an extraordinary way, and he will be successful and act effectively. He will bring mighty ones to ruin, also the people made up of the holy ones."

  
  

  The UN will attack religious institutions, which will also affect faithful individuals.

  
  

  "And by his cunning he will use deception to succeed; and in his heart he will exalt himself; and during a time of security he will bring many to ruin. He will even stand up against the Prince of princes, but he will be broken without human hand."

  
  

  At the end of the great tribulation, Jesus will come and put an end to the rulership of the UN leader, and all the other world leaders.

  
  

  The progression of world powers is described in parallel accounts at Daniel chapter 2, Daniel chapter 7, Daniel chapter 8, Daniel chapters 11 and 12, and in Revelation.

  
  

  When taken all together, it is clear that the UN will be the dominant world power for 3 1/2 years during the time Jesus has received the kingdom in heaven.