Christadelphian

by Billy1000 83 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Billy1000
    Billy1000

    Steve2 i do see your point, i really do. Would i have become a Christadelphian if i was not born into it, probably not. I watched that movie that was put up earlier (Why do you believe) and it really intrigued me.

    That being said i was born into this religion so i cannot change that, not that i currently want to.

    Yes the Old Testament is bloody, terribly so, but so were the times.

    Only up to 200 years ago, the British would send prisoners to a country thousands of kilometers away at times for only stealing a loaf of bread.

    If you believe in the timeline that the Bible puts forward, the times were incredibly bloody, for the Jews and against them, but to think that it was all due to God would be very naive. Every nation of the time would of done similar if not worst, the Assyrians to name one. However as time progressed and we make it into the new testament, things have changed.

    With the coming of Christ he fulfilled the Law of Moses and those things were to be done away with.

    Instead of the Law of Moses, don't do this, do this... it was replaced with the teachings of Christ.

    Strong Rules and restrictions were put onto the Jews due to how many times they faltered.

  • Anders Andersen
    Anders Andersen

    @Billy,

    Btw kudos to your politie and calm demeanor.

    You behaviour is unlike many other (so-called) Christians and/or Jehovah's Witnesses responding to people challenging the validity of their beliefs.

    It doesn't mean you're right ;-) but it's a commendation to your humanity :-)

  • steve2
    steve2

    but to think that it was all due to God would be very naive. Every nation of the time would of done similar if not worst, the Assyrians to name one. However as time progressed and we make it into the new testament, things have changed.

    I would like to say how much I have appreciated exchanges with you Billy and I endorse Anders Anderson's comments about your polite and calm demeanor.

    Could I just correct an impression that seems to have stemmed from my recent post: I did not mean to convey that historical violence "was all due to God". If I had said that I would have to agree with you that would be very naive.

    Since I do not believe in God, I am talking from the viewpoint of people who do believe in God.

    Instead I tried to communicate something a bit more subtle but nonetheless important: In terms of development, no anient people were better or more enlightened than any others - even those claiming to be God's people. In fact, those very people quote their God, Jehovah/Yahweh, as endorsing violence and brutality to other people (and no doubt those other people were also violent and brutal!).

    As for Christ fulfilling the law, look at the rampage mad book of Revelation, filled with graphic images of divine killing fields soaked with blood.

    History is very clear: The secular Enlightenment - not religion - has led to a vast improvement in awareness of human rights and lwas to protect minorities. Those rights were never conferred by religious groups - to the contrary, every step of the way, religions has tried to block human rights. Sure, religious groups benefit from human rights but it is a fallacy to say those groups promote human rights.

    In short, improvements in the way people are treated has much less to do with religious scruples and far more to do with principles stemming from the Enlightenment.

    Your comments about probably not being a Christadelphian if you were not born into that group is borne out by research on religious affiliation. But I also hear what you are saying about how belief becomes a part of you and cannot be shaken off like clothing. This reflects the many ways in which we humans become indoctrinated and struggle to see the world from a new and more challenging perspective. Change is incredibly hard for any human who comes from a background of strong religious teachings, whether those teachings be of Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Hindu backgrounds. Truth has nothing to do with the difficulty in challenging one's beliefs.

  • atomant
    atomant
    Heres a post from many years ago that really sums it all up billy1000.

    The God in the Bible is not the Genuine Greatest Creator
    Xuefeng

    First of all, we have to admit that the Bible is the accomplishment of the Ephraim which loyally records the Jewish history, explains the relationship between the God, Devil and human beings to the furthest degree, and gives the direction the human beings should take.

    The Bible, the Koran, the Buddhist Scripture and the Tao Te Ching are the eternal and effective treasures and collections of human wisdom, teaching us how to behave and develop into the higher level of life space. The tenth and final plague of Egypt was the death of all first born in Egypt — no one escaped, from the lowest servant to Pharaoh's own first-born son, including first-born of livestock.


    It is understandable that the God punished Egypt because Egyptian Pharaoh wouldn't obey his order. However, it was unreasonable and went too far to kill the first-born of all humans and animals in Egypt. You can punish the Egyptian Pharaoh for his disobedience. Why inflicting on the common people? Even worse, the God would kill the kids of the girl slaves working as donkeys in the lowest rank. Can we still say the God behaving like this merciful? It was behaving without humanitarianism just like a Devil.


    Even more abominable, the Pharaoh of Egypt wouldn't let the Israelis leave mainly because the God had hardened the Pharaoh's heart. Before the Ten Plagues came, the God in the Bible had done something. According to 7:3
    in the Exodus, Jehovah told Moses, “And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.”


    It means the God in the Bible had prepared a trap for the Egyptians, trying to find an excuse for the following plagues. In Exodus 8:19, “Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.”. In Exodus 9:35, “And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.” In Exodus 10:20, “But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.” In Exodus 10:27, “But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.”

    “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. The first sentence in the Bible did tell the truth. But the things covered by the cossack may not be the holly things. And the people wearing the sacred cassock may not be the abbot.

    The problem with the Bible is that the God it introduces is not the genuine Greatest Creator.

    We have known that the Greatest Creator has the 8 features. The Greatest Creator is sole and only, amorphous, neutral, mysterious, impartial, merciful, supremely powerful and wise. The wisdom of the Greatest Creator is revealed through its establishment of the Universe order, design of the life program and knowledge about the past and the future.
    Let’s explain this with examples. The Betrayal of Adam and Eve
    According to the Genesis, Adam and Eve were instigated to eat the fruit on the Wisdom Tree forbidden by the God in the Bible. Because they have violated the order of the God (in the Bible), they were repelled out of the Eden.

    It indicates that the God in the Bible is a. incompetent; b. improvident; and c. impartial.

    He is incompetent because he was a loser at the beginning. The first couple of human he created betrayed him. So can we still say it is supremely powerful?

    Can we still believe in a “person” who often loses? The Great Flood had killed most of the human beings. What happened to them afterwards? They still wouldn’t listen to his words. The Moses Ten Commandments are actually the directives of the God in the Bible. Can you tell me how many of them are obeyed by the human being? Actually not even one. The God in the Bible seemed to know nothing about how to control the human beings. The only measure it takes is to voice warnings and threats against the human beings. Thousands of years has passed, the human beings remain the same. Is there no means to control the human beings? Or is there some other force constraining this Almighty God? If this is the case, is this God not sole or only? For thousands of years, the human beings have been violating hisorder. What is he waiting for?

    The God in the Bible is improvident because he didn't know that Adam and Eve were going to betray him or the development trend of what he had created. Is this God, who is not able to predict the future or the past, still reliable? If the Earth is going to get out of the Solar System and this God knows nothing about it, how can he save the human beings? How can this GOD administer the deities, Buddha, celestial beings and Devils when he found it difficult to control the human beings? How can he manage the spacious Universe?
    The God in the Bible is impartial because it cannot tell wrong from the right and because it is unreasonable.


    Why would Adam and Eve betray the God in the Bible? There are three major reasons. First, the genetic structure of Adam and Eve had faults, or was imperfect. The life created by this God was now its own constraint. This angered the God very much. It is just like the house built by an architect who put every efforts was fallen and hit his own feet. Is the house or the architect that should be blamed?

    The second reason they betrayed is that they were instigated and seduced by the snake. Adam and Eve are humans while behind the snake was the Devil Satan. The energy and wisdom of human beings can’t match those of the Devil. This God didn’t punish the Devil Satan. Instead, it imposed inflictions on Adam and Eve and drove them out of Eden. Is it fair? If a rapist raped an 8-year-old girl, would it be fair to blame the girl for her sexual organ and weakness instead of bringing justice to the rapist?

    The third reason of betrayal, which is also the most important one, is the damned Wisdom Tree that can tell the good and evil. Who has planted it in the Eden and why? It’s just like putting a poisonous sweet on the dinner table for the kids. Or it’s like playing the porn video for the young girls while teaching them to retain their innocence. Would a moral person do such a thing? Isn’t this “person” who planted the Wisdom Tree in the Eden has caused the betrayal of Adam and Eve?

    Besides, does this God, who had created Adam and Eve, has other measures to take rather than driving Adam and Eve out of the Eden? Is it fair not to give them a second chance simply because they have made only one mistake? Does one mistake justify their life-long sins?Jesus came to the Mortal World to atone for the human beings’ sins. According to the Bible, all the people have their “original sin”. Where does the “original sin” come from? Actually, they are inherited from Adam and Eve, the ancestors of human beings, whose sins were formed because they had eaten the fruit on the damned Wisdom Tree.

    When we are born, we have the “original sin” inherited from Adam and Eve. The “cross” on our back was much too heavy. According to this logic, “the son of a thief is always a thief”, “the son of a criminal is always a criminal”, and “the son of an emperor is always an emperor”. That’s why in ancient China, in the feudal period in particular, “If a man committed crime, all his family members would be sentenced to death”, or “If a man attained the Tao, even his pets ascended to Heaven”. This also explains why the thrones can only be passed on to the next generations of royal families. This is because it complies with the logic in the Bible.

    If somebody has sins, the God in the Bible and the Satan sined first. Is it humanitarian to inflict on billions of humans throughout the history simply because of the wrongdoings of Adam and Eve? Why not executing Adam and Eve and creating a new pair of humans at the time? Is creating a new couple so difficult for the God in the Bible?

    All the people are born with sins. This is why each of us comes to the Mortal World to endure the sufferings. But the sins are not inherited from our ancestors. They are made by oursleves in the previous cycle of life. If we don’t have sins, we would all have become Buddha or celestial beings. Ten Plagues of Egypt
    According to the Exodus, when Moses and Aaron, in the capacity of the GOD in the Bible, asked the Egyptian Pharaoh to let the Israelis leave Egypt, they were refused. Consequently, the GOD in the Bible imposed 10 plagues on Egypt.

    1. Plague of Blood The water of the Nile will be changed into blood. The fish in the Nile will die, and the river will stink; the Egyptians will not be able to drink its water.2. Plague of Frogs. The Nile will teem with frogs. They will come up into your palace and your bedroom and onto your bed, into the houses of your officials and on your people, and into your ovens and kneading troughs. The frogs will go up on you and your people and all your officials.

    3. Plague of Lice.The dust of the ground became lice, lice came upon men and animals. All the dust throughout the land of Egypt became lice.

    4. Plague of Flies The houses of the Egyptians will be full of flies, and even the ground where they are.

    5. Plague of Livestock Death The fifth plague of Egypt was an epidemic disease which exterminated the Egyptian livestock; that is, horses, donkeys, camels, cattle, sheep and goats;

    6. Plague of Boils The sixth plague of Egypt was Shkhin. The Shkhin was a kind of skin disease, usually translated as "boils".;

    7. Plague of Hail The seventh plague of Egypt was a destructive storm;

    8. Plague of Locusts Locusts will devour what little you have left after the hail, including every tree that is growing in your fields.;

    9. Plague of Darkness Total darkness covered all Egypt for three days

    10. Death of the Firstborn
  • atomant
    atomant
    The tenth and final plague of Egypt was the death of all first born in Egypt — no one escaped, from the lowest servant to Pharaoh's own first-born son, including first-born of livestock.


    It is understandable that the God punished Egypt because Egyptian Pharaoh wouldn't obey his order. However, it was unreasonable and went too far to kill the first-born of all humans and animals in Egypt. You can punish the Egyptian Pharaoh for his disobedience. Why inflicting on the common people? Even worse, the God would kill the kids of the girl slaves working as donkeys in the lowest rank. Can we still say the God behaving like this merciful? It was behaving without humanitarianism just like a Devil.


    Even more abominable, the Pharaoh of Egypt wouldn't let the Israelis leave mainly because the God had hardened the Pharaoh's heart. Before the Ten Plagues came, the God in the Bible had done something. According to 7:3
    in the Exodus, Jehovah told Moses, “And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.”


    It means the God in the Bible had prepared a trap for the Egyptians, trying to find an excuse for the following plagues. In Exodus 8:19, “Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.”. In Exodus 9:35, “And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.” In Exodus 10:20, “But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.” In Exodus 10:27, “But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.”
  • Billy1000
    Billy1000

    Yes you would be correct in saying that Religion as a whole has held back society due to teachings which are probably more steeped in cultural timing then in actual teachings and lessons to live by.

    For example most religions abhor tattoos due to the teachings in the old testament, however in the same passage it tells us that we are not supposed to cut the hair on our temples... and from recollection it is only the Jews that follow that teaching.

    Religion does justify to suit their own means, we follow the easy rules... for example no tattoos but then ignore the other more difficult ones.

    That being said (for me) the people within the religion is not a reason to give up my faith.

    Religion in my belief needs to catch up to the current times, same ideas but presented in a different manner.

    A lot of it does come down to conformity, following what your parents or family believe, but i would encourage anyone to doubt there faith and to really think about why they do what they do

    Because if you believe in the bible, going along with the crowd does not mean you will definitely get the blessing which were promised, only truly believing will.

  • Billy1000
    Billy1000

    Hi atomant

    I can see your point in regards to the Pharoahs and the Egyptians, and to be honest there is many cases in the bible especially in the Old Testament.

    In these cases i have actually been in contact with some of the Jewish faith to try and explain this to me also, when i hear back i will let everyone know.

    However in regards to the Garden of Eden... Gods plan and purpose on the earth is to fill the earth with his glory as it says in Numbers 14. However you have to have followers and obedient ones at that.

    God puts the tree in the garden to test Adam and Eve, as how can anyone be obedient if there is not rules to obey. Adam and Eve were fresh, innocent like children and the serpent was the carnel mind (i do not believe in the devil). Two sides of the same coin just like we have today a part of us tells us to do good and the other bad it is up to us as to which one we choose.

    Eve chose the wrong path and Adam followed suit, and we are told that the price of sin is death.

    In the example it says that God always failed as humans kept ignoring his rules, it is all a matter of perspective as i read it we were the ones who failed because we were unable to follow the rules...

    That being said i have just read a Jewish topic where they argue whether Genesis (a part of it anyway) is just an allegory.

  • atomant
    atomant
    hi billy1000.l guess the 1000 tagged onto your name represents the millennial rule of christ.Anyway getting back to disobedient humans l guess its in their nature.An inborn weakness imperfection.The same applys to the angels.What l dont get is why one third of the angels left god to join forces with satan.Does not make sense like so many things.l really do get so frustrated trying to make any sense of it all.Keeping an open mind helps.l guess deep down most of us believe in a creator of some kind even though many will not admit to it until facing death on their death bed.Funny about that.
  • Billy1000
    Billy1000

    atomant - billy was a nickname from my sisters and the 1000 was simply because hotmail had already taken just billy so i added the 1000 onto the end, no scriptural meaning at all.

    I think it is impossible not to wonder why we are hear, what is our purpose, were are we heading that is also a natural human response. Many believe the story you mention with the angels is an allegory. Christadelphians don't believe this actually happened or that there is a being in Satan who battles God for our soul.

    Some of us turn to religion and others turn each other and some would rather not know. Everyone has to make their own mind up, ad on that note you then can't be angry at each other if you are found out to be incorrect because each of us have made our decision and we need to live by it.

    I do not profess to know everything of the world, or even everything about the bible, but i believe from the information i have that i am walking the right path and that is all i can go on

  • steve2
    steve2

    Billy you are a hair's breath away from agnosticism. Ouch - I've said it!

    C'mon, honor your active thinking brain and take the step. It's healthier than propping up a house of spiirtual cards that the wind of reason keeps blowing over.

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