Why does God create abominations?

by CPiolo 44 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  ClassAvenger

  What SanFranciscoJim said is true, it is not a choice which people can decide. God made us either man or woman. I had never thought about it in that light.

  Paduan, to cut off the hand doesn't mean to literally do it, although the Jews follow this literally. It means to practice rigid self-denial and to have complete control over your body, so that this sin won't lead to impure desires and make the person stumble on his faith. When read in context, the verse is talking about how we should not desire a woman and have complete control over ourselves. Self-mutilation is a sin. The other verse doesn't mean that you have to give up everything you have in order to be a disciple, but to put God first over all that you have. If you must leave your riches, family, or whatever you have to follow Him, then so be it.

  Phantom Stranger, I believe God works in mysterious ways and I am no one to challenge or question his decisions or acts. God can do whatever he wants whenever he pleases, he is GOD. Oh, and by the way, that phrase in my profile is from the movie The Patriot. It's awesome isn't it?
• 

  Phantom Stranger

  No, actually, it's not - it's sad.

  I guess we can assume your handle didn't come from your Marxist beliefs in redistribution of wealth.

  Sorry to have implied you were trying to make sense of the Bible, Class Avenger. Again we see that Bible should be taken literally at all times, except when it should be taken figuratively. Move this Mason-Dixon line of demarcation to and fro, and you can run the gamut of interpretations from Southern Baptist to Unitarian.

  So, Class Avenger, do you believe that God created the possibility for a person to genetically be predisposed to same-sex relations, but to give in to these innate desires is a sin?
• 

  Oroborus21

  Greetings!

  Your arguments can be easily dismantled with very simple reasoning.

  Animals Do It.

  Although you say "nevermind that animals do it..." since you drop this line of justification for homosexuality, etc. in (and others continue the thought), I will address it.

  That animals do or may not do something or behave in some way is absolutely no justification for human beings doing the same thing.

  Examples illustrating the point extend from killing for killing's sake (not just food or to eat) which some animals do, to eating one's vomit, bedding down in feces and mire, to licking your own ass, etc. etc. all of which both as intelligent and "civilised" human beings coexisting in a society we can plainly understand to be unnatural an an abomination to our sense of proper conduct.

  Animals may do it but human beings should be more than mere animals. Thus allowing for your assertion that animals may engage in homosexual behaviour that is simply not a proper justification for humans to engage in homosexuality.

  Genetic Disposition or Outcome

  Much of your post is concerned with setting forth the argument that Homosexuallity is genetically based. You then state that because this is the "natural" order of things, ostensibly created by God, that He is thus responsible for such a creation.

  Your post shows a lack of understanding of JW theology.

  JWs believe that human beings since Adam and Eve are genetically defective. Thus the reason that our bodies eventually break down, succumb to defect in processes and ultimately grow old and die--all due to our common inheritance of imperfection.

  Any thing that we would classify as a genetic defect whether it be Down's Syndrome or (conceding your proof) Homosexuality is simply that: a genetic defect and is therefore not the result of God's Creation but a byproduct of Man's Fall from perfection.

  Thus you can cite as must proof as you want that there is a correlation between genetics and homosexuality but it doesn't jive with your argument that God is responsible.

  Assuming again that Homosexuality is not a lifechoice (although the sexual acts themselves are obviously and patently a matter of choice because abstinence is a choice made by persons of all sexualities), and the average homosexual is the product of his genes, there is always the age old argument that who we are in life is the product of both our genetic inheritance AND (the environment or our upbringing), i.e. Nature vs. Nurture.

  Thus while we can be sympathetic and even compassionate towards those unfortunate individuals who have been born with this genetic imperfection, just as we would again say towards a person with Down's or MS or any congenital problem, we still can recognize that it is a problem and that the situation is not natural, i.e. an abomination.

  I know what I have said is not very palatable and certainly isn't politically correct but this is simple clear reasoning and I think a correct counter to your arguments.

  Sincerely,

  Eduardo

  PS: to the person and others that were discussing 1 Cor. 6:9:

  you are correct in saying that the literal translation of Malakoi is "soft men" however in interpreting this to mean Cowards or something like that you ignore the very next clause ("nor liers with males") which seems to suggest a double emphasis to the prior Malakoi. The understanding that this scripture includes reference to homosexuals, men who lie with men, is not a Jehovah's Witness interpretation but the concession of all (that I know of) bible scholars and certainly all bible translations that I have ever encountered.
• 

  CPiolo

  Eduardo:
  
  I think your post is directed at me. So, let me respond to some of your comments.
  
  My point about homosexual behavior occurring throughout the animal kingdom wasn't meant as a justification. What it shows is that it is not an aberration, but rather quite common and natural, occurring for distinct reasons in different species. I drop that line of reasoning, because I wanted to pursue another -- the genetic factor. I only mentioned it to illustrate that humans are not the only animal to demonstrate such behavior and that if God created everything, he created other beings besides humans who demonstrate homosexual behavior. We share many behaviors with other animals -- eating, drinking, sleeping, bathing, sexual reproduction, nursing our young, living in groups, etc.
  
  Your examples of "unnatural" animal behavior show ignorance as to exactly what these behaviors are and why they occur. While not a biologist, let me address one -- eating one's vomit.
  
  Vomiting is a sign of illness or disease. Animals do not usually eat vomit. They do often regurgitate (expel undigested food) and eat that -- entirely different.
  
  Regurgitation can occur for several reasons such as eating too quickly or as a natural part of the digestive process (chewing cud). Some animals also regurgitate to feed their young, which helps young with immature digestive tracts or where it would be impossible to bring a whole carcass to the nest or den.
  
  Eating what one has regurgitated makes sense when considering the effort most animals expend in obtaining food. It requires far less energy to eat the regurgitated food than to look for and/or hunt for a new source of food, thus helping in the survival of the individual.
  
  You also ignore the immense variety of human behaviors. There are things we do in Western society that are viewed as weird, aberrant, vile and disgusting by other cultures. Other cultures do things we don't understand, find just as weird, aberrant, vile and disgusting as they find our behavior. Even some Biblical customs, if practiced today, would be found abhorrent -- stoning to death disobedient children and non-virtuous women by their husbands. Or in the case of JWs, allowing oneself to die rather than accept life-saving blood transfusions(suicide), or letting the same fate befall one's child (murder) is found an abomination by most of what you call "civilized" society.
  
  The point is that our disgust is learned. You could, of course, point out that we just need to learn the correct (in this case Biblical) behavior. But then we have the never ending conflict of who's the proper authority and whose interpretation of ancient scripture is correct.
  
  Secondly, I wasn't speaking only to JWs, nor necessarily only to Christians. As well, I am not a JW, just an interested one. But here you begin to address my original question, from a JW perspective at least. That's what I was looking for.
  
  Your response leads me to some more questions.
  
  In JW theology, is Jehovah omnipresent, omniscient, and all powerful?
  
  Is He not responsible for the created universe?
  
  If so, isn't He responsible for everything in it, including whatever defects there may be, including allowing Adam and Eve to fall and condemn all of mankind to imperfection?
  
  Can you support Biblically the notion that Adam and Eve are defective genetically? It would seem difficult, since the existence of genes is comparatively a recent discovery, certainly not something ancient Hebrews would have been aware of nor have been able to comprehend.
  
  The Bible of course talks about disease and death as punishment for their indiscretion. Where does the Bible mention God altering genes?
  
  How did a perfect human couple make an imperfect choice leading to the condemnation of all future generations?
  
  Is there a specific imperfection gene or is it a combination of genes that leads to our imperfection?
  
  The evidence that homosexuality is genetic keeps getting stronger. God/Jehovah being responsible for the created universe would then have to be responsible. He would also be responsible for Down's syndrome, cleft palates, poor vision, sickle cell anemia, etc., etc., etc.
  
  Even if all of this can be blamed on good old Adam and Eve, why so much condemnation of homosexuals and no condemnation of those who suffer from Down's syndrome (we could always condemn them for their lack of intelligence) and other genetic defects caused by the Fall? Are these individuals abominations as well? If not, why? Why so much focus on sexual "defects"?
  
  Could it be because this is one of strongest and most base drives and one of the most difficult to control, like hunger?
  
  Why is God testing these individuals in such a cruel manner?
  
  By not being natural, I assume you speaking in religious/moral terms, not in scientific terms. In the scientific sense, all that occurs is natural, including everything resulting from the Fall.
  
  There are and have been many societies throughout time that accept and have accepted homosexuals, bisexuals, and transgendered people as just some of the many aspects of natural occurring human existence. But then maybe they're just, through their tolerance and acceptance, demonstrating more imperfection.
  
  CPiolo
• 

  jwbot

  This is a good thread. bttt