The Devil, The Original Serpent?

by Faraon 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Faraon

  http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0146&query=whiston%20chapter%3D%232&layout=&loc=1.1

  Flavious Josephus was a Jewish historian, who lived around the times near when Jesus was supposed to be alive. (from 37 CE to circa 100 CE).

  For centuries Josephus' works were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are an invaluable eye-witness to a momentous turning point in Judaism, Christianity, and Western civilization.

  The WT claims that a snake was in reality being made to talk by the devil. Let?s see what Josephus has to say about the fall of man and if big J really said that there will be a savior for all humanity after mankind sinned.

  (4)[40] God therefore commanded that Adam and his wife should eat of all the rest of the plants, but to abstain from the tree of knowledge; and foretold to them, that if they touched it, it would prove their destruction. But while all the living creatures had one language, 5 at that time the serpent, which then lived together with Adam and his wife, shewed an envious disposition, at his supposal of their living happily, and in obedience to the commands of God; and imagining, that when they disobeyed them, they would fall into calamities, he persuaded the woman, out of a malicious intention, to taste of the tree of knowledge, telling them, that in that tree was the knowledge of good and evil; which knowledge, when they should obtain, they would lead a happy life; nay, a life not inferior to that of a god: by which means he overcame the woman, and persuaded her to despise the command of God.

  What! All living creatures had one language?

  The snake was living together with Adam and his wife?

  The snake itself, and not Satan, was the one showing an envious disposition?

  But when God came into the garden, Adam, who was wont before to come and converse with him, being conscious of his wicked behavior, went out of the way. This behavior surprised God; and he asked what was the cause of this his procedure; and why he, that before delighted in that conversation, did now fly from it, and avoid it.

  What!

  Was god surprised because he didn?t know what was going on?

  Someone besides little J saw, and even conversed with big J?

  ? which state of labor and pains-taking would soon bring on old age, and death would not be at any remote distance:

  Hey, What happened to dying on the same day?

  He also deprived the serpent of speech, out of indignation at his malicious disposition towards Adam. Besides this, he inserted poison under his tongue, and made him an enemy to men; and suggested to them, that they should direct their strokes against his head, that being the place wherein lay his mischievous designs towards men, and it being easiest to take vengeance on him, that way. And when he had deprived him of the use of his feet, he made him to go rolling all along, and dragging himself upon the ground. And when God had appointed these penalties for them, he removed Adam and Eve out of the garden into another place.

  What happened here?

  Snakes had feet?

  You have Josephus writing the Jewish history, but he does not say the Mesiah would smash his head. It says that they (both Adam and his wife) would do it. I wonder if he was such a devout Jew, why he did not even know a messiah would destroy Satan so that all would live forever in paradise.

  See, that's what happened in the first century because they had no Watchtowers in print.

  Any thoughts?
• 

  Panda

  AND it turns out that the snake told the truth.

  Read Elaine Pagels, The Origin of Satan
• 

  gumby

  The woman and the snake story is in Egyptian writings older than the bible......it was just another myth that was adopted by the jews who wrote it in their book......now the bible.

  Gumby
• 

  Enishi

  Interesting, I had always thought that maybe the ole serpent wasn't such a bad guy.

  I've noticed that some of the stories in the Bible, if interpreted in a spiritual way and not a literal way, at times seem to be saying the exact opposite of what they appear to be.
• 

  gumby

  at times seem to be saying the exact opposite of what they appear to be.

  Yeah.....but your still a sinner even though you have been washed clean......and that's why you die. Gee.....makes sense to me.

  Gumby
• 

  Enishi

  I believe that the scripture about being washed clean in the blood of a lamb has a much more esoteric definition than most people think. It's a symbol of inner purification, and shows that suffering, however horrible it might be, is a part of being alive and we couldn't truelly grow without it.
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  Panda

  Enishi, Being washed clean in the blood actually goes back to the ancient worship of childbirth. Before the patriarchal gods nature was like a god, procreation was divine. And there was a fear of women who could bleed and not die. Many men began rites of bleeding to immitate womens mentrual cycles which used to coinside with the lunar cycles. Barbara Walker has written some about this, some others too.

  In ancient religions women and snakes represented wisdom. You can see why the bronze age god of war wouldn't like that, even in Egypt the god's wife was always in the house of Pharoah. In fact, women had previously been the king makers. Oh gosh so much to read but worth every second.

  BTW welcome, Panda
• 

  Enishi

  Enishi, Being washed clean in the blood actually goes back to the ancient worship of childbirth. Before the patriarchal gods nature was like a god, procreation was divine. And there was a fear of women who could bleed and not die. Many men began rites of bleeding to immitate womens mentrual cycles which used to coinside with the lunar cycles.

  Interesting, I had read somewhere that the ancients associated the process of procreation with the creation of the universe. It makes sense, considering that there are many symbolic representations of positive/negative, or active/passive forces in the first books of Genesis, like the the spirit of God moving over the waters and whatnot.

  In ancient religions women and snakes represented wisdom. You can see why the bronze age god of war wouldn't like that, even in Egypt the god's wife was always in the house of Pharoah.

  In Gnosticism, Sophia, or the female element of divine man represented wisdom.

  Did all the supposed wars of Israel in the promised land take place during the bronze age? I had always wondered why God seemed more violent in the early books of Genesis, it almost seemed as if his personality changed along with the writers perception of him.
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  Panda

  Enishi, I'm not sure about the timing of all the Bible Battles. Some were myth not history so the timing isn't important but the timing of the writing is important. The Jews needed a history to bring them together. They had tons of material from the Babylonian captivity (including the Hammurabi code). And they also had info on magician priests, babies in the river etc. Why I always wondered, did Jehovah not change Moses Egyptian name when he changed many other names? Even Abraham, Sarah, Jacob got name changes. But the magician Moses kept his EGYPTIAN moniker. Go figure...

  I agree that the Bible god had multiple personalities. When you mix cultures your gods won't stay the same. Look at the way Jesus changes from martyr to loving-god depending on where you heard about him. Mary has changes for the Western Europeans to be a blond, then to SA to their own goddess (Our Lady of Guadalupe) with dark hair and the symbols of both Mayan and Spanish cultures surrounding her.

  Check out Jack Miles GOD a Biography. The author discusses the many personalities of god and treats those with a literary critique. Because afterall we're talking about a god written by men. Like any ancient god he's a greator and a destroyer; he's a legislator and a general; he is holy as well as fiend, you get the picture. It's a quick read.
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  Enishi

  I don't know if this is true or not, but Moses might have kept his Egyptian name since it was in Egypt that he learned most of his spell-craft and esoteric knowledge. Egypt used to be to the ancient world what India is now to the industrialized western world. It was from both them and the Babylonians that the Jews recieved much of their religious inspiration, and then adapted it to their own culture.

  The sudden change God makes between a diety of vengeance in the old testament and a diety of love the new testament was something I had always been questioning for quite some time. Its part of what made me become a Gnostic. The term "personality", as we understand it, is to limiting to apply to Absolute, it creates all sorts of nonsense.