Dear Brother "You Know"

by AMNESIAN 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AMNESIAN

  Brother, please, if you would, inform as to exactly what your genuine view is of the WBTS and, particularly, the GB in relation to Bible prophecy, Christianity, and its self-professed role as the so-called "fds" and sole spokesman for Jehovah? Much of what you post (or, at least, the posts I've read) is clearly at tremendous odds with their published teachings, yet, on its face, your position seems to be as one of their staunchest defenders/supporters. I don't get it!

  I don't wish to in any way ridicule you ---there's a bit too much of that around here (from you included!) toward the dissenting opinion that I personally find very distasteful and similar to WBTS tactics--- but am genuinely interested in just exactly what it is you truly believe and teach. It obviously is not what the Society teaches. Take no offense, but are you really a believing, practicing Jehovah's Witness, who, in good conscience, teaches others what has become such an embarrassingly mangled mish-mash of shifting, seriously eroded doctrine and baffle-'em-with-bullsh*t "new light" ?

  If so, how do you reconcile the grievous errors, lies, deceptions, and injustices it/they continue to themselves perpetrate, or allow to be perpetrated, against its trusting, blinded membership --- of whom I have been a part now 29 years, my spouse, 45 years--- in the name of Jehovah and Jesus? Respectfully, how is it your confidence in them has not been completely undone as to their claim to being God's spirit-directed organization or, even, as to their having any spiritual integrity whatsoever whether spirit-directed or not?

  I ask you because you seem, for the most part, fairly lucid and thoughtful (unless you, like "Brother" Fredhall, is having us on. He is so clearly not what he would have this audience believe that I know better than to take him seriously.) You, otoh, seem quite serious, thus posing quite a different dilemma for me that I sincerely would like to try to sort out. Mostly for personal reasons.

  I'd sincerely appreciate your candid response and ask forgiveness if you've answered these questions in a previous post. I'm sporadically in and out of here.

  Thanks.

  AMNESIAN - after swallowing so many lies, now the forgetful hearer
• 

  Fredhall

  Amnesian,

  The reason why I don't take most of you seriously because you don't take us seriously. You apostates throw mud at us then I can throw mud back.
• 

  kes152

  In all seriousness Mr. Fred Hall,

  When I was JW it was VERY important that whenever "anyone" ("apostates" included) threw mud at God's people, "we" would 'turn the other cheek,' and leave it to God, OTHERWISE we are NO different than they are.

  For my Lord said,

  "If you love those (JWs) loving you (fellow JWs), of what good is it? Are not the NATIONS doing the same thing?"

  I took this VERY seriously when I was a JW. Although I'm out now, I STILL love all you JWs that are in the organization. I consider none of you my enemies, although certain elders and Witnesses made themselves enemies of me by hindering my partaking and speaking abusively of me.

  I don't blame them for their 'hidden' jealousy, but when the same 'invitation' is offered to them, they run. And yet if I accept the 'invitation' of my Lord, they're angry.

  Yet, and still, I love them and SHOW that love to them, for that is what a "true son of God" does. And I personally would have NO problem showing love to you and You Know.

  I don't know if you will take me seriously now, Fred Hall, but you are free to if you wish to. If you take me seriously, I accept your love. If not,

  My peace remains, upon you AND your entire household.....
  Aaron
• 

  You Know

  Dear Brother;

  I am a very active publisher and frequent auxiliary pioneer. I have been in the truth for 25 years. I have had a heavenly hope for the last 5 years.

  I believe that the Watchtower has served God's purpose, but as I have indicated, it appears from the prophecies as if the physical part of the organization is going to be discarded by Jehovah during the tribulation. The way it has served Jehovah is by educating people in the basics of Christianity and providing a genuine basis for faith in God and hope in his incoming kingdom. It has also served a vital function in drawing into focus the long obscured scriptural issues having to do with the vindication of God's sovereignty when Christ's kingdom comes completely into power, as well as the issues involving our integrity to God. Primarily it has provided the fanfare and legal foundation for Christ's kingdom to situate itself into world affairs.

  It is similar to the function served by the typical nation of Israel, in that they set the stage for the arrival of the Messiah. But, once the Messiah arrived, then God's purpose in connection with fleshly Israel and Jerusalem was finished and he disbanded the nation. Interestingly, of those who were supposedly in expectation of Christ, only a remnant actually accepted Jesus as the Son of God. All the others stumbled over him in one way or the other. That's why Jesus is in fact called the "stone of stumbling." Do some research and you will find that Jehovah acknowledges that his own spirit directed and beloved people are going to bring reproach on themselves as well as set an enormous stumbling block before all those of God's household.

  So, the many prophecies indicate that the way things played out in the 1st century stand as a pattern of things to come. That is to say, that Christ, as the head of an imperfect body of anointed believers, will once again stand as a looming and potentially lethal stumbling block to all those not fully devoted to his God. That's the final test that will confront all those who hope to gain salvation.

  As regards the faithful and discreet slave, what is little appreciated is that the illustrative prophecy points out that when the master arrives to inspect his household that the faithful slave gets beaten with a few strokes because he was ignorant of certain aspects of his master's will. That is in contrast with the evil slave that gets punished with the greatest of severity. The more detailed account of that parable is in the less-cited 12th chapter of Luke. So, there is an ultimate judging that awaits the anointed house of God as well as the other sheep. And that's of course in line with Jesus' parable about his judging the sheep and the goats during the time when his brothers are laid low.

  So, while I am aware of numerous deficiencies in the Watchtower's present teaching, I don't seize upon these as a reason for apostatizing from Jehovah. I am loyal to God and my brothers and am determined to wait on Christ to sort all this stuff out when he arrives. The way I figure it, you gotta dance with the one that brung ya. The Watchtower has taught me many wonderful things about God for which I am deeply grateful. It sorrows me to see the all the difficulties coming upon the organization, but it's all a part of God's purpose to refine his people and settle the issues that Satan has raised. I hope to write more on this later. / You Know
• 

  Farkel

  : It has also served a vital function in drawing into focus the long obscured scriptural issues having to do with the vindication of God's sovereignty when Christ's kingdom comes completely into power, as well as the issues involving our integrity to God

  The notion of "vindicating God's sovereignty" is so idiotic I don't know how dubs can swallow it. Oh, I forgot: they're braindead.

  God IS sovereign, period. Nothing to prove. He created everything and he can destroy everything, including "Satan" and his "hoards" of deeeminnnz. You don't believe in God, he kills you. You believe in God and do your best to "vindicate His sovereignty," he kill you anyway. So far, every single dead person on this planet has been killed directly because of choices God made; every person dying at this very moment is dying directly because of choices God made. So He has NOTHING to prove. He's the boss and we are schmucks and he lets us die without doing a damn thing about it. Doesn't matter what we do or don't do.

  On the other hand, Satan has never killed anyone. He can't. God won't let him. So God HAS ALREADY WON. There is no way he could lose. If Satan is so horribly wicked, then why does God do virtually ALL of the killing? Why won't God let Satan have some of the killing fun, too?

  If Satan suceeded in getting virtually EVERY HUMAN being who lives and has ever lived to worship him and flat-out reject God, would God turn over sovereignty to him? NO! He would kill him and everybody else anyway. Simply put, Satan is in a lose-lose situation.

  The whole issue of God being "vindicated" is so contemptibly idiotic that I cannot believe anyone could ever buy it. God's deal is this: worship me my way or I'll kill you and you will be dead forever and ever and ever. It's not vindication of anything, YK. It's blackmail, and the whole planet is being blackmailed.

  I don't worship Gods who blackmail their own children, and even when they comply kills them by letting them die, anyway.

  Farkel
• 

  TR

  YK,

  The way it has served Jehovah is by educating people in the basics of Christianity and providing a genuine basis for faith in God and hope in his incoming kingdom.

  Who has the WTS educated beyond their membership? There are BILLIONS of people who haven't heard their "message". And, the only message they preach is attaining god's kingdom by means of their defective and deceitful cult. What a bunch of Beee Esss.

  TR

  "cults suck"
• 

  wannahelp

  You Know,

  I am impressed by your post...

  I would like to ask you an honest question from the heart..

  First, I'm not nor have I ever been a JW..

  I personally believe that god = love (I believe there is a scripture that actually states that)..

  Now, the way I look at it, unconditional love is as close to godly love as any human can get, yet the JW's don't have unconditional love, nor do they have unconditional friendship (I.E. You must be a member in good standing of the organization to be 'loved' and be treated as a 'real friend'), which frequently goes against a JW's personal conscience... (Shunning of a family member or a close friend I'm sure is not an issue where the person's conscience is not torn between loyalty to the family/friend and loyalty to the organization.. In the end, however, the organization wins out over the persons conscience..)

  But, I'm very willing to admit that I do not know everything, and may be in error.. Can you explain your "love" to me so I might understand it, and more to the point, explain scripturally why I shouldn't show unconditional love (Like what I believe Jesus has shown), but it should be conditional. And if it is to be conditional, on what condition???

  If you try to Imitate Jesus, as my friend has told me over and over again, then show me the scriptures (in context, and explain them to me) that state how I should love conditionally, and show conditional friendship based on devotion to an organization full of fallable men that by both our accounts has made many mistakes..

  My JW friend is doing everything he can to show me he has the truth, which will entail showing me that the love I have for my fellow man is not the type of love that God and Jesus approve of..

  Can you help me by trying to explain it to me.. He has been unable to do so thus far..

  Thank you for any insight you can offer on the subject..
• 

  DannyBear

  You Know,

  Talk about the lepord changing spots. You do 'take the cake'. Hell Robert, you are going 180 degrees in a different direction now, as compared to your years of ranting on old H2o. Then you were a staunch defender of the WTBS, now you are predicting their demise.

  Could it be that your swan song final address on H20 revealed your true 'apostacy' toward 'gods organization on earth'? I think you have simply reajusted your agenda, even you can't explain away your 'goodbye revelation'. A faithful jw for 25years yeah, annointed another yeah, love your brothers and sisters uh huh.

  As many posters already have pointed out, you may fool some of the newbies, and continue to get your jollies from creating a forum for your 'musings'. But you will soon find yourself dug into even larger hole, than you have previously dug for yourself. Soon the 'thought police' will be knocking on your door...you will not be able to explain away your heresy, you have arrived...you are unabashedly ONE OF US NOW. He Ha way to go.

  For some unknown reason, even though your blatant dishonesty makes me cringe. Call me deranged or even silly, but I still hope for your final healing, a complete release from all the fantasy and doublespeak your poor mind is so thourghly cluttered with.

  What a 'kick in the pants' it would be to see you out going from 'door to door' spreading the party line. Love to slip a few copies of your most recent essay's to the local body of elders, just before you join them for the first donut shop stop. My my the conversation would be just hummin wouldn't it?

  Hope you record your judicial hearing. Then you can always play it back, as a reminder of the 'loving god and organization' that unceramoniously booted your ass out the door!

  Welcome home Bobby.

  Danny
• 

  Copernicus

  AMNESIAN – you should know that YK’s expressed viewpoint is not unique among Witnesses at this time.

  Many of the old timers that I knew (20 years or more) were beginning to come to the same conclusions as YK and were openly saying so in the congregation (ie: that we had become the Israelites). I mean after all, when you can no longer deny that gibberish and lies are being presented to you as “spiritual food,” you have to find some way to justify it. These ones that I am speaking of had made such a huge buy-in to the WT, and invested so many years, that they were simply unwilling to consider the possibility that it was all a waste.

  I too independently considered the explanation that Bobby is offering you. On the surface, it seemed to make sense and placated me for a short while. But really, where it failed the litmus test for me was my inability to find a biblical example of where Jehovah had intentionally (or otherwise) mislead and lied to people, and then told them that their reaction after discovering this was a test of their faith, as we were taught to believe. If God does hate lies, why would he entrap his supposed followers in an organization rife with them, and hinge their salvation on a willingness to propagate same? I couldn’t live with that aspect of the argument, though as I said, I did try for a time.

  The only way I could have stayed and made it work would have been to view the GB as Jesus did the religious leaders of his day - “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform, etc, etc.” But as a public speaker, being forced (by peer and other pressures)to be a mouthpiece for these individuals, helping them to abuse and manipulate the flock (to sustain sales quotas of all things) was more than I could stomach.

  YK does make some interesting points. I’m looking forward to your response to his explanation AMNESIAN. And by the way, you’re right, he has essentially started his own religion - as his position would never for an instant be tolerated or entertained by the organization he claims to be a part of, however obliquely.
• 

  larc

  You Know,

  I have a serious question for you. I assume that the JWs still believe the same on this matter, but I am not sure. If the big "A" would hit tommorow, those who never heard the word, in places like India or China for example, would either not die, or they would die but be resurrected into the new world. In other words, they would not be dead forever. Now it this is true, why is the door to door work even necessary? In this situation, isn't the phrase, "ignorance is bliss" applicable? I sincerely would be interested in your thoughts on this.