Dear Brother "You Know"

by AMNESIAN 19 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  You Know

  TO WANNAHELP:

  It has become rather faddish these days to speak of unconditional love. In reality there is no such thing, except perhaps in the narcissism so prevalent in society. Jesus and Jehovah certainly don't have today's version of unconditional love. Jesus himself said to his disciples at John 15:14---"You are my friends IF you do what I am commanding you." Did you notice that "if"? It's a tiny little word but it has a lot of meaning. Jesus' continued friendship with humans is very much conditional, based upon our obeying his commands. While most people that call themselves Christians may assume that they are somehow obeying Jesus' commands, Jesus plainly says that he will consider most people to be lawless hypocrites because they fail to do the will of his Father. (See Matthew 7:15-23) Furthermore, Jesus said that his true family were not necessarily his fleshly relatives, but rather the ones who were like his mother and brothers and sisters were those who did the will of his God. So by that declaration Jesus definitely indicated that his intimacy was only with those special few that actually endeavored to please Jehovah God.

  Christ pointed out thought that Jehovah loves his enemies and demonstrates that by making provisions for their continued sustenance. But such provisions are temporary. When Jehovah's forbearance will have at last accomplished its purpose, it then comes to an end. Then only those who really love God and Christ will be saved. Our love as Jehovah's Witnesses is also conditional. We do not put family relations before spiritual ones. But we do endeavor to show love to our enemies. Our ministry expresses this love. We are willing to extend ourselves to assist anyone regardless of their station in life or race or whatever, to come to know God. We are willing to go into the ghettos and risk our lives in other ways in order to help someone come to know the truth about Jehovah. But that love too is conditional. And if over time persons fail to respond to the extension of Jehovah's love---it is withdrawn. That's the way it is. / You Know
• 

  Copernicus

  After reading that post, I think I'm going to be sick. . .

  Really YK, how is it possible for you to vacillate the way you do between singing the party song (as above) and offing your own twist on things whenever it suits your mood (or your agenda, whatever it might be)? It's like watching a drunk drive down the road.

  "Our ministry expresses this love. We are willing to extend ourselves to assist anyone regardless of their station in life or race or whatever, to come to know God."

  To know God? Do you mean in that delusional sense of that WT sacred misnomer called "accurate knowledge"? Jesus commandment that you mentioned was to love one another. It [love] certainly wasn't something that many of us here experienced much of in the WT, nor is it in any sense the primary emotive aura that you project. Is it loving to lie to others?

  Knowing God? I think Jesus' message (if in fact he has anything to say today)on this subject to the GB and thier ilk would be "get away from me, I never knew you. . . . "
  
  Blah!
• 

  Cliff Jackson

  You Know: <<So, while I am aware of numerous deficiencies in the Watchtower's present teaching, I don't seize upon these as a reason for apostatizing from Jehovah. I am loyal to God and my brothers and am determined to wait on Christ to sort all this stuff out when he arrives. The way I figure it, you gotta dance with the one that brung ya. The Watchtower has taught me many wonderful things about God for which I am deeply grateful. It sorrows me to see the all the difficulties coming upon the organization, but it's all a part of God's purpose to refine his people and settle the issues that Satan has raised. I hope to write more on this later. / You Know>>

  How is it that you (know) are not disf'd? You have surely angered the G B much more than Ray Franz. You say you will wait on Christ...
  Didn't Christ come back in 1914, or do you not believe the truth? IF Christ did come back, what is taking Him so long to "sort all this out?"
• 

  You Know

  On the other hand, Satan has never killed anyone. He can't.

  One would be hard pressed to find a more ignorant post than yours. There is so much error and untruth in what you wrote that I would be all morning trying to straighten you out, assuming that you could even be set straight. But as regards the above quote, you are directly at odds with Jesus. At John 8:44 Jesus said that the Devil "was a manslayer when he began." Also at the time of Jesus' arrest, Christ indicated that the reason he had been handed over was because the hour had come for the authority of the darkness. So the Bible reveals that Satan is the one responsible for Jesus' death. Furthermore, the book of Acts says that Christ came to "break up the works of the Devil" because that one has the means to cause death. Clearly you are either cluless about the Bible or you are deliberately lying. Why don't you just stick with MAD magazines and leave the Bible alone? / You Know
• 

  You Know

  It [love] certainly wasn't something that many of us here experienced much of in the WT

  That's not been my experience. But, part of the problem may rest with you. In fact I am sure of it. If you didn't experience love among God's people it is because you were unloving yourself. Jesus revealed that that's the way Jehovah's universe works. The more you give the more you get. Try it. It works. / You Know
• 

  larc

  You Know,

  I think you did a good job of stating your case, re: conditional love. You are probably right on this one. I think that, in most cases, that our willingness to love another does have its limits. One exception might be the love that most parents have for their children. It takes exceptionally bad behavior on the part of an adult offspring before parents will disown them.

  Now, earlier I asked a question about the logic of the door to door work. I know you are getting hit with multiple inputs, but, are you going to address my question?
• 

  Cliff Jackson

  YK: <<you are directly at odds with Jesus. At John 8:44 Jesus said that the Devil "was a manslayer when he began." Also at the time of Jesus' arrest, Christ indicated that the reason he had been handed over was because the hour had come for the authority of the darkness. So the Bible reveals that Satan is the one responsible for Jesus' death. Furthermore, >>

  Are you just going to take the word of oral 2nd or 3rd hand testimony that the Devil did anything at all? Don't you think the Devil would have written something as well?

  Why is it that you can't get any results by praying to Jesus OR Satan? Aren't either one at home? Pray tell, if Jesus is now ruling over us since 1914, it seems He wouldn't have so far to go to answer prayers. Jesus, are you listening at Brooklyn Hdqs?
• 

  wannahelp

  You Know:

  I am impressed by your post to me on Conditional/Unconditional love... You actually made me think a great deal about the whole topic..

  I have but one question.. You admit that you are a fallable human being, being led by fallable human beings themselves..

  However, it is inconceivable to you that you are possbily wrong about your organization being god's channel. I.E. You claim infallablility on that count.. So, you've elevated yourself to rightousness in this stance.

  And, as a rightous human being (infallable in this arena) you are passing judgement on others that is reserved for Christ and God.. For only they can judge.. Yet, you, because of your being led by a fallable organization are able to claim infallability in this area and state:

  A.) The "world" is your enemy
  B.) We'll show conditional love to "them" to lead them to see our "truth"
  C.) After a period of time, we'll judge them as unworthy of our love, and withdraw it if they have not taken root in our "truth" the way we see it, and accept the entire package, lock stock and barrel, including ignoring the errors, the false prophecies, and man made rules..

  You try to imitate Jesus Christ, yet you say only Jesus and Jehovah can judge as only they are infallable, we as humans are not..

  How is that an imitation of Jesus.. Doesn't the very fact that you are attempting to claim rightousness in the area of spirituality diminish Jesus and what he did for us? More to the point, aren't you attempting to at best claim to be equal to Jesus, at worst claim to replace him altogether?

  And that's why I claim that I love people unconditionally.. Yes, I'm quite fallable.. I don't love everybody unconditionally, as I believe I should (for putting a condition on love is judging someone as unworthy of love, something only Jesus and/or God can do, not me, for I don't claim infallability)..

  I also know that because I have a personal relationship with Jesus and God, I don't have to worry about a 'bad association' ruining my relationship with them.. It would be the same as saying, "I have a friend who dislikes my father, so I cannot be with that friend, because he will turn me against my father.." If I love my father whole heartidly, my friend cannot do that, no matter what he does or says...

  In fact, the more my friend would try to pull us apart, the closer my father's and my relationship would become..

  You, and your organization on the other hand, shun anyone who doesn't believe as you do, or even dare disagrees with anything the GB says, even if it is wrong. Is that because you are "spiritually meek" or "spiritually weak"? A spiritually meek person would welcome a conversation to either re-affirm or re-adjust one's thinking to try and get closer to god. A spiritually weak person would be afraid of such a conversation because they are too set in their ways to even entertain the idea they are wrong.. (I.E. Claim infallability on the subject, and close the mind.. Not very humble at all if you ask me)

  I feel I am spiritually meek, and as such I'm always open to new ideas, and welcome hearing different views and opionions.. I don't claim that I am right, nor do I claim that I have the truth.. Therefor, I don't take judging people into my own hands... (Yeah, I fall short many times, and do judge.. But I shouldn't, and I don't make it a directive of mine).. On the other hand, your organization does make it a directive to judge in the name of rightousness, a rightousness that only Christ himself can claim.. )

  As it does state in the bible that everyone will have to account personally at the time of judgement, what are you going to say to Christ when your time comes?.. I tried to imitate you as best I could, although as you know I am fallable, but I became infallable in the area of my spirituality, and was able to judge people in rightousness as you did.

  I wonder what Christ will reply to you when you say this to him...

  Oh, and for the record, that doesn't sound very humble to me...

  I view conditional love as a human fallability, a falling short, as you said yourself, Jehovah shows even his enemies love and underserved kindness. First off, where is the master list that show's who is Jehovah's enemies.. We do not know who his enemies really are unless you had a direct connection to him.. Well, the very fact that 'gods channel' has made mistakes invalidates the claim that you are in good communication with Jehovah, for he doesn't make mistakes, nor does he mislead anyone... Truth is always truth with him... It never changes, it never 'waffles' back and forth, and it certainly doesn't mislead his own chosen people.

  So, how do you know who his enemies are, unless you claim an infallability that you cannot possibly posess, for then you are claiming you and all the rest of the 6 Million+ Jehovah's witness' on earth are little re-incarnations of perfect human beings.. Of course, that can't be it, because all of you admit that you make mistakes..

  So, all I do is understand that I do not have the right to judge others (Yeah, I do at times, because I fall short, as I am fallable), and try to show unconditional love and friendship to all that I can.. No strings attached, other than to help them on their way to grow and become happy in their life.. For, I have no idea if they are more acceptable to God than I am.. And whoa be the person who turns his back on an 'angel' of the lord... Yet, if I allow an enemy of the lord into my house, I'm willing to bet that Christ will view that as undeserved kindness, and maybe even a chance for him to 'preach' to his enemy through me in an effort to bring the lost sheep back into his fold...

  Either way, I don't see how conditional love can in any way be godlike, except for god himself...

  I could be wrong, and if I am, please show me the error's of my way, and I'll re-adjust my thinking accordingly... But, the fact of the matter is I could be right also...

  If you want to live as JW, and believe you are infallable in the area of spirituality, that is fine.. I'm just pointing out why I believe at the moment that I should not. I'm also stating that I could certainly be your friend, and love you as a human being no matter what your choice is in life. Of course, as a JW, you cannot show me the same...

  I not only understand that, but I accept it, and will continue to show love and friendship to you, and any other JW not because I believe I am better than you are (again, who am I to judge, you may be right, and I just don't see it), but because I am being true to me and my heart. The only man-made doctrines I follow are my own... I think that will count for much on my judgement day.. You must follow your heart, and your convictions.. My only real comment to you is, I certainly don't want to appear in front of Christ and tell him that I was infallable in any aspect of my life, because I want his undeserved kindness, and I'm afraid that claiming something that was reserved only for him will anger him greatly!!!
• 

  bjc2012

  You Know,

  If Luke 12:42-48 applies to the body of the anointed Witnesses on earth today and Jesus’ final inspection finds them in one of two conditions described below:

  a) anointed who have full understanding but persist in wrongdoing, and

  b) anointed who do not understand and have unwittingly persisted in wrongdoing;

  then, in which of these two categories do you fall as you claim to be of the anointed?

  You have demonstrated to this board that you do understand the entire situation fully, which means that Jesus has revealed this to you as one of the anointed. If he has revealed this to you then he has also revealed it to others of the anointed. A Logical assumption, wouldn’t you say? Therefore, if Jesus has revealed this to the “anointed” on earth, the conditions of total ignorance described by you CANNOT exist and are an impossibility. Amos 3:7 shows that Jehovah ALWAYS reveals his “confidential matters” to his “prophets”, the anointed.

  Therefore, Luke 12:42-48 does not describe an “anointed” group since Jehovah’s Witnesses are not anointed as a people, as of yet. However, these verses will apply in the future to some of Jehovah’s Witnesses while they are still in a non-anointed state. You, yourself, stated in another post that Jehovah was going to (future) pour His spirit out on His people after they have been disciplined by Him. As the Bible reveals it is a future situation among God’s Name People.

  Your treatise is good however, since it shows clearly that the “faithful steward” is not anointed. The ‘anointed are taught directly by the spirit and they have knowledge.’ 1 John 2:20 says: “And you have an anointing from the Holy One; all of you have knowledge.” Verse 27 says: “You do not need anyone to be teaching you; but as the anointing from him is teaching you about ALL things.” Therefore, it is impossible for the ‘anointed’ to exist in conditions of ignorance such as you have described in your post. They also have an ‘incorruptible seed’ that is implanted within them and leads them. They cannot deviate from its leading for any length of time lest they blaspheme it. The Bible shows that first century Anointed Christians “did not practice sin,” nor did they teach an ‘artfully contrived false story’ for over 120 years (like the 1914 teaching)! -- Please see 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9; 2 Peter 1:16.

  Therefore, there are no anointed Christians among the Jehovah’s Witnesses today!!

  bjc
• 

  kes152

  Uh, er, bjc?!!??!

  you said:

  Therefore, there are no anointed Christians among the Jehovah’s Witnesses today!!

  When in actuallity there is NO SUCH THING as an "anointed Christian."

  Go and learn this ...... what does the word "anointed" mean?

  yup! it means "smeared" ... what ELSE does it mean?

  yes, it means "Christ"

  John 1:41

  See NWT Ref. Bible footnote.

  So Christ means 'anointed' then what does "Christ-ian" mean?

  As you can see, an "anointed Christian" is the EQUIVALENT of saying a "Christ Christian" .......

  Now, you tell me, What is a Christian?
  Aaron