Do you sometimes wish you could believe?

by Xander 16 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Xander

  Idle thought for the moment.

  I consider myself pagan - mostly because of the earth-friendly orientation of the 'religion'. I tend to feel some forces guide us, but not in a christian way - to no real purpose or divine goal. More karmic.

  And that does most the time, but sometimes...

  I dunno, I see witchy-types quite a bit. Very into their spells and preparation. Observe the sabbats and esbats with fervor, etc. And they believe! They feel their spells work.

  And who am I to question them?

  Yet, at the same time, as a JW, I always thought my prayers 'worked'. Or didn't 'work', but only due to god's will. Obviously, in retrospect, they had no effect at all and only 'worked' or didn't 'work' when what I was praying for was actually going to happen or not - completely independent of my wishes.

  Still, especially with the pagan fervor around this time of year -the Last Harvest and into Yule....

  I wish I could believe.

  You know?

  And so many witches are ADAMANT that their spells work, and as a JW, of course, we were taught to fear witches because their spells worked, etc. But...now...I cannot set it.
• 

  Lutece

  You know, a good cure for those feelings is to watch a movie based on a real life person who ,by their own determination and "power" make things happen for good. I think prayer was really just a form of meditation at times, but I did feel ashamed if I fell asleep while saying mine, hehe. I am more often amazed at what simple humans can accomplish when they are up against incredible odds. No god or spells used, just their own spirit and energy and determination. Whatever potions or prayers or incantations we think we need, it's all just to help us overcome our fears and give us the strength to go on. I believe that we are the ones who make things happen and if there is a god, he created us that way. I'm agnostic, by the way. :)

  Anne
• 

  franklin J

  Xander,

  I know how you feel. It is difficult to put into words, but as a JW, I had a certain sense of security in that I had ( or certainly BELIEVED that I had) all the answers. I no longer live with that perception. The realization that it was a big lie was a stunning blow. After 20 years, the uncertainty of life has become A PART of my life and I suppose I live with that everyday, we all do.

  I often ask myself if I was better off as a JW, living with all those untruths, maybe more secure, and I always come back to the same answer--NO. Once the bubble is burst, there is no going back, only forward. I suppose the truths that I live with now is that my life will be what I ( not someone else or some other superior Being) will make of it. Call it positive thinking, call it determination, but I will not allow those old teachings of " we have Jehovahs backing and protection" to haunt me any longer. We live in a free country; we all have a mind to think and reason with.

  I have to admit to myself that I do not have all the answers, and many things are beyond my control, and understanding. Some things I may never know....but that is OK for me, I can live with that.

  Frank
• 

  stillajwexelder

  I am more than happy to believe if it is based on fact - and scientific truth
• 

  ApagaLaLuz

  Yes, when I was first having my doubts I used think "Maybe I can just Force myself to believe, and force myself not to doubt." In fact the elder's used to tell me to pray and read literature when those doubts came up. That's called Brainwashing. I used to think if I could just MAKE myself believe things would me so much smoother. Well you know 4 years later, life is the "smoothest" it's ever been. Give it time. But dont sell out yourself for the happiness of other people, it's just not worth it.
• 

  Xander

  You know, a good cure for those feelings is to watch a movie based on a real life person who ,by their own determination and "power" make things happen for good. I think prayer was really just a form of meditation at times, but I did feel ashamed if I fell asleep while saying mine, hehe.

  Problem with all such movies I've seen to date are either:

  1) There are heavy religious undertones. IE., this person accomplished something great for themselves, but god and jesus were there with them.

  2) The amount of dumb luck involved is too staggering to believe. I understand much is generally added for 'dramatic' purposes - but it just makes it seem fake.

  3) Finally, the person is portrayed as 'bigger than life'. Again, this is the 'dramatic license' thing, but it tends to present bigger than life issue that the person keeps beating - problems that a 'normal' person, regardless of motivation, would fail at, but the hero of the movie always succeeeds brilliantly.

  Honestly, I feel movies based on this topic are rarely tolerable - it's probably just that it's a bad media to tell these kind of tales in. Movies tend to feel compelled to exhaggerate events - to try and 'tell an interesting story'.

  I often ask myself if I was better off as a JW, living with all those untruths, maybe more secure, and I always come back to the same answer

  Well, of course not. I know THAT. I'm quite convinced the JWs are completely wrong on their interpretation of...well...everything.

  But does that mean that just because their interpretation of supernatural events was wrong, that nothing supernatural exists? Witches would disagree with that, and my own experience would incline me to agree with them.

  But, still....I haven't seen anybody demonstrate conclusive CONTROL over anything supernatural as much they proclaim they can.
• 

  franklin J

  Xander,

  I agree with your observations; there are things out there of which there is no explanation; scientific or otherwise. Perhaps in time, humanity will "crack the code" on many things, and science will be able to illuminate that which is still a mystery. I have no doubt that the human race, if given the time and determination, will achieve more great things in terms of discovery. Our culture has illustrated that.

  Also, based on history, humanity does seem to have a need to "worship" something greater, and perhaps our current culture, with the Age of reason and the technologies of the 20th and 21 centuries as a base, will see humanity move beyond the "worship" stage into more understanding with nature and the life cycle of the planet.

  ....I suppose I just accept that I have no answers...

  Frank
• 

  Sirona

  Xander,

  As you probably know, I'm also ex JW who is now pagan. Yes I'm one of the ones you label "witch".

  I too am doubtful about many so called supernatural experiences. I do believe that some people, and yes, even me! (LOL) have let their imagination run away with them. You are correct that much of meditation and spellcraft are more to do with the individual than any other outside "energy". However, I do believe that spellcraft can also yield results.

  When you see a spirit at a time and in a place where you are fully awake, not intoxicated, rational, etc. and your description matches someone you've never met then I guess its more convincing. :-)

  Xander in seriousness I would suggest that rather than worrying about whether something is 100% true or not, you just try to make it to a place within yourself where you are content without searching. It sounds to me like you need an alternative - you know the JWs are wrong, therefore "what is there?"

  Nothing will ever satisfy you 100%. Well, I'm talking from my own personal experience. I've seen spirits (yes, in my adult life), I've seen spells work in amazing ways, I've even seen Her - the goddess. But when alls said and done, if you want to, you will convince yourself that you didn't see it - or if (like me) you can accept it, you still don't know the answers and you still don't know why bad things happen. I'm rambling.......let me relate an experience.

  At Samhain I saw a little girl in spirit. She was holding onto her mothers arm (her mother is one of another coven we associate with sometimes). I didn't know that her mother had ever had a little girl. I just saw her. Anyway, I told the mother who explained that she had lost a little girl in the womb (at 5-6 months). Now my point is, why was the little girl 6 or 7 years old when I saw her? The mother says that is how old she would have been. Well that confuses me because its a strange concept that they might grow in spirit....I believe in reincarnation so why did that girl not just go to some other parents?

  Thats the thing, we can never know all the answers.

  Blessings

  Sirona

  x
• 

  Adam

  I wouldn't say that I wished I could believe. I feel that my inability to accept that which can not be proven to me is a good thing, an honest thing, and leaves my mind open to explore different theories. I some times do get a pang of jelousy when speaking with someone who "knows" whether there is a god, who "knows" which god is the true one, who "knows" what happens after death, who "knows" why we are here and what we are supposed to do with our time on this Earth. I suppose that feeling arises because I want to know the answers as well. But the pang is only that, and it never lasts more than a few seconds. Why? Because I realize that these people, despite all of their conviction, really do not know, they believe. No, I don't wish I could believe, but I would still like to know.
• 

  Xander

  Yes I'm one of the ones you label "witch".

  First off, I was not intending to offend, here. All witches I know call themselves 'witches', or (if appropriate), Wiccans. I was not using the term derogatively, but descriptively.

  However, I do believe that spellcraft can also yield results.

  See, that's just it, though.

  I have, on occasion, seen things happen that didn't make logical sense. One I posted here that sticks with me is a music box that would always start playing - even when not wound up - when the lights went off. Turn them on, it stopped. Turn them off, back on again. Freaked the hell out of me as a JW. Now, it wouldn't alarm me in the least (don't believe in demons), but I would be curious.

  I don't doubt that their is a spirit element to the world - I'm quite sure of it. Hence, why I call myself 'pagan' rather than 'atheist'. I KNOW there are things beyond our experience in the world.

  I guess what I was fishing for is the thoughts of people who believe we can interact with them in a meaningful way. The JWs taught that it was possible, but for entirely wrong reasons and with entirely wrong understanding of what was happening (they believed you were talking to demons, whose sole purpose was to lead you away from their religion. Well, that's obviously wrong....). Witches believe it is possible, but with entirely opposite meaning (and varied - many teachings site the power coming from different sources).

  I see all the prayers I did growing up, and realize that they had no effect at all! Not through some internal focus allowing me to accomplish things, or some divine intervention - but prayer really had absolutely no effect at all of any kind. I mean, the only prayers I made that 'worked' were things like "Please guide me to being baptized" or "Please let me have the courage to do this talk good" (oh, c'mon, you all have done that one! And tried to make it all holy and 'for the good of the congregation' instead of just selfish 'LET ME SURVIVE'). And every one NOT in those veins failed. So, what conclusion can one draw from this?

  At Samhain I saw a little girl in spirit. She was holding onto her mothers arm....

  And that's the point of my original post.

  As a JW, I would always hear tales of prayers that WORKED. Oh, they happened on the time. Somebody prayed for a donation from a stranger to get through the month, and sure enough, it appeared on their doorstep - EXACTLY what they needed! Or, someone is in the market for a new car, and they pray that if they find one of this exact value, they'll buy it! And, sure enough, the next day they go shopping and a car is on the lot - having JUST been marked down that morning to the exact value they prayed for - TO THE PENNY!

  Etc.

  It sounds silly, but I really wanted (as a JW) to have the success with prayer these people did. I'd even go so far as to ask elders who had these experiences to pray FOR me and WITH me so I could see the results of their prayers!

  Needless to say, any such experience I was a part of always yielded nothing. No deals that were, to the penny, what I prayed for. No help from mysterious sources when it was needed.

  That's kind of the thought I was submitting for discussion with my post. I WANT to believe, but, because of the experience with JWs, I just can't.

  Your experience is a good example - I've heard things like that before! Several times, from several people. My mother (a witch before she became a JW) even claimed similar things happened. (She claimed, retrospectively, of course, that it was demons she was seeing). Problem is, maybe just because of my negative experiences with JWs, I can't believe anything like that.

  I want to, certainly. But I just can't bring myself to believe anybody else's experiences any more. I NEED to see something for myself.

  In short, *I* do wish I could believe.

  Anyway, I thought it would be an interesting point of discussion.