Cappucino and Coverups: my JW neighbor came over today...

by bebu 26 Replies latest jw experiences

  • bebu
    bebu

    My JW neighbor wasn't able to come on Monday after all, but we rescheduled our meeting for today (Wednesday). On Monday, I had a bit of material around, and my next-door neighbor stopped in. I found out that she was in a Bible study with some JWs! So, I took about 20 minutes to deprogram her (it was easy; she still had most of her brain to herself) and sent her home with summaries of info...

    And so today, my JW friend came over for a review of what was bothering me about the FDS. I got her a cup of cappucino, and I got out a whole plate of miniature Nestle European chocolates (which I pretty much ate all by myself; she was too absorbed in reading ). She got out her Bible, and began to talk about the trinity not being in the Bible, and so this refuted Christendom and that the FDS was FAITHFUL, etc. I had to interrupt this; this always goes down rabbit trails, and goodness, she's been a witness for about 40 years--she's trapped by rabbit trails.

    I used a set of documents I ordered from witness.inc. The series of documents (all from the WT) show the history of the FDS being quite different in reality from what is reported in their history books. It was rather slow going, but worth it, I think, because each point got established very well. We took over 2 hours! It was a little tricky to get her to agree to look at the documents I had. I had to reassure her that if she found discrepancies, I'd be very happy to investigate further.

    First, we looked at what is being taught today about the FDS, and also looked at WT's current version of history during those tumultuous years between 1916 and 1919, when the noble "John class" resisted the pull of sectarianism by those who were dedicated to Russell as the FDS. (So inspiring! ) It is a sanitized history. Then we began to explore documents that were published by the WT before, during, and after 1914 to show that Russell hinted that the FDS was an individual (and printed endorsements of himself as being the FDS), that the bulk of the Bible Students believed Russell was the FDS... It got stickier, much stickier, when it became clear that Rutherford was leading the "Russellite" movement by publishing "The Finished Mystery" (with the interesting prologue!) and by what was published in the WT. For example, the WT in 1921 and 1922 were adamant that Russell was the FDS--and to disagree was to follow Satan and disobey the Lord. (Not quite jiving with the history she was familiar with!) In essence, the "evil slave class" that the WT today decreed itself of cleansing from the organization was: THEMSELVES.

    Again, the beginning was easy, and then it became thicker, and then she was starting to fret and be defensive. I didn't simply throw things at her, but pulled things out of the binder, and asked her, "this page from the WT says that.... Do you agree?" I tried to be non-partial in regards to the information, and very sympathetic toward her point of view. At certain points, I had to stress that if she felt that my interpretation of the document's message was wrong, she should feel free to point out the problems. By the end of the presentation, she was barely glancing at the papers and just saying, "Yes, it says that." (Again, a bit frustrated at being at the disadvantage.)

    When she complained that she hadn't read these things before and couldn't comment well on them, I said, "Well, I didn't think you had read of them!... I think people's understanding of truth might be like a math problem. You must have the right information, the right process, and then you can come to a good result. In trying to get to the heart of truth, you must be sure that your information is right (verify it!), that your processing of this information is done as best as you can, and you must be ready to do this with integrity--that is, without your bias tipping the scales. You have not had accurate information, in my view."

    I also tried to remind her that we each have a new responsiblity whenever we come across new information, that is relevent to our answers. We may have been making the best decisions possible with our current information, but if we ignore new relevent information we have, at that point, become guilty of putting our preferences above our regard for truth.

    She wanted me to admit to trying to throw bad light on the JWs. I replied that I have read this information and she hadn't; what it reveals to me is that the WT is guilty of a coverup. How can I trust them, how can I read what is printed on the WT today, while realizing that they have published blatant lies within the past 20-30 years? They are not trustworthy. I could not trust them to be printing "truth" today if they are engaged in a coverup of the past!

    I also asked them (was it Shotgun who brought up this idea?), that if their teaching was not true during the early years, then their teachings were false. Right? And if false, where did they come from? I had to remind her of some passages in the 1922 WTs that clearly stated that anyone who refused to acknowledge CTRussell as the FDS was 1) as abandoning the Lord, not being a child of God, failing a test of loyalty, and being influenced by Satan. Aren't these WT "teachings"? And aren't these false? She tried to explain that that was how they understood truth back then, "but of course, they were wrong!" I had to repeat the point: people make mistakes about what is truth, but truth never changed at all. The teachings changed, and they were either true or false in relation to whatever was actually true. So, were the teachings of the 1920s false teachings or not? She admitted they were--but still...!

    There was a LOT of defensiveness at times. She felt unprepared to handle all this. I guess she was defensive because she, of course, had never been in the situation where she was at a loss before! I also told her that her doctrinal concerns were of secondary importance to me. If she felt blood transfusions were wrong, fine. If she felt holidays were bad, fine. If she could never believe the trinity, fine! But when the truth is clearly revealed that your leader is a WOLF, and has been deceitful and lying to its own congregation, there is clearly a Biblican duty to refuse to follow a deceitful leader. Such a one is not a truthlover. I told her to simply read and believe the Bible, and to follow the words of Jesus.

    We actually didn't get through everything. I still had a summary and some documents to address her points about "New Light" and "attacking JWs", but she had to leave for work. She took the document pack with her (what we'd gone over) to look over again. She said that she had never had time to read things like this, attempting to give the impression that it may not be so important as I was trying to make it to be. I told her that I felt that in regard to religion, it was of great importance to be sure of all things, so reading things like this was essential for making the best decision about your life! AGAIN, I tried to remind her that, even if she, herself, felt good about trusting the WT, I certainly had a lot of red flags to overcome! I mentioned that there were about 3-4 more areas I hoped she'd look at...

    She pried to know what they were. Without spilling too much, I told her they were in regard to paganism (or occultism, I should say), perjury, and coverups. The first being, of course, the Great Pyramid that Russell relied upon for understanding Bible events and chronology. The second being not really perjury (but I couldn't think of the right word for it at the time) but the admission in the 1954 Scottish Sessions Court by Franz that JWs are required to believe and obey leaders, even if they prove to be false prophets. The third, of course, referring to all the endless coverups from every direction, easily found on www.quotes.jehovahswitnesses.com. This last section will take me months, I imagine, if she is stubborn.

    She looked distressed before she left. I finished speaking, and then put my arm around her and hugged her hard. I said, "I love you! Thanks for 'suffering in silence' today for me!" She began to laugh, and hugged me back. She relaxed.

    She needs to come back later to get some coffee from me (I give her free roasted coffee--maybe that's why she likes me!? ) I will also give her the document summary, which is pretty powerful.

    I have to get roasting some coffee now... Will keep you posted. Please add suggestions--I always appreciate them. Your suggestions from the other thread have been very helpful!

    Thanks for reading!

    bebu

    Edited to add: Much of the above sounds negative. However, there were several points where my neighbor quietly admitted that things were wrong. She is having a bit of consternation, I do believe, but it looks like it's in a good zone. ...Edited again for clarity and fixing taipohs.

  • Stephanus
    Stephanus
    She needs to come back later to get some coffee from me (I give her free roasted coffee--maybe that's why she likes me!? )

    The price of her freedom?

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    Nice work. It looks like you are cracking open a mind.

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    ***slap on the back****

    Wow, I felt like I'm watching a daytime t.v. drama.... thanks.

  • simplesally
    simplesally

    You don't need anything but the bible to see who the very first Gentile Christian was. It was Cornelius. According to the Scriptures, he was able to baptized, tho Gentile, because he and his household had evidence of holy spirit poured out on them. What occupation did he have?

    Egads! He was an ARMY officer. Now, why do JW's not allow ARMY and other military personnel to become baptized? I thought the Bible set the precedent.

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Bebu I think I'm in love...your so intelligent and you roast your own coffee too.

    The Proclaimers book is a good one to use, its current in JW eyes and exposes many things which most JW's don't take time to notice.

    If you want I can e-mail you a document which I spent a little time putting together on the proclaimers book.

    Also in the Proclaimers book it shows the Cover of The Watchtower right up to 1931, there are two symbols prominently displayed in each corner of the WT. Next time if you get into the occult or before you get into it show her those symbols and see if she knows what they are there for and what purpose they would have in true worship.

    That may be too indepth...you sure are doing great though! keep it up!

  • Maverick
    Maverick

    Bebu. I hope she gets it! The programming in very deeply set. You are hammering at the Loyalty sub routine. If she talks to some dud she respects they may quell her fears and tell her to just trust the FDS. She is just a woman, and got tricked. This is a test of loyalty to God (FDS)! Everything you have told her is true, and your logic is wonderful, but the J-dud Masters play on emotion and rhetoric, backed up with subtle threats of alienation for disloyalty. 40 years is a lot of invested time to toss off. The Organization is like an abusive lover a mentally trapped person may not want to give up because of all the time and history they have had together. I wish you the best. Maverick

  • bebu
    bebu

    Thanks for the good comments so far.

    Maverick, I do agree with you. There is a whole lot that I am up against and there are NO guarantees for me. I have to really work to make sure that the door stays open. And why shouldn't it? My whole point is that in order to convert me, you have to help me past some problems and allay my fears. How can this happen unless she first understands the depth of my troubles? Giving up on me and retreating to some kind of lame "chant" (as Garybuss calls it) of "waiting on Jehovah" is NOT going to received well by me. I will hold her to her claim to seek truth above all, and that she follows the BIBLE. I will certainly challenge her with the scripture she claims to follow: Test EVERYTHING...

    Shotgun, you have a pm...! (Hands Shotgun a bag of freshly roasted and ground coffee... Mmmmmm)

    bebu

    PR 18:17 The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.

  • rocketman
    rocketman
    Egads! He was an ARMY officer. Now, why do JW's not allow ARMY and other military personnel to become baptized? I thought the Bible set the precedent.

    Very interesting point SS.

    bebu, wow, you are really prepared for these conversations!

  • kj
    kj

    I love reading these stories! God is truly using you to reach your friend. Even if she is not showing it on the outside, she is probably having a lot of nagging questions that she can't deny. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

    kj

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