Scholar and Fisherman (page 18)

wannaexit

Scholar and Fisherman, I was a question for yo both: if you are believers then what the hell are you here for.

Fisherman

wanna

Non JW are always telling me what I should do to be a JW.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

Non JW are always telling me what I should do to be a JW.

Poor you. 🙄 JWs tell people not only what they should do to be a JW, but also that anyone who doesn’t become a JW will die at Armageddon (‘soon’), though they are less than honest about telling people that on initial contact.

Balaamsass2

:) lol Discussing/arguing JW "Chronology" is about as useful as discussing how many buttons Santa Claus has on his jacket...after... you become a teenager and realize Santa Claus is a children's fable.

Fisherman

lol Discussing/arguing JW "Chronology" is about as useful as discussing how many buttons Santa Claus has on his jacket.

Shoe is on the other foot. Scholar has done an amazing job showing JW interpretation of Bible chronology is valid.

Jeffro

Fisherman:

Scholar has done an amazing job showing JW interpretation of Bible chronology is valid.

I must have missed that post. 😂 Either that or it’s your low (actually, incredibly inconsistent) standard of evidence.

Jeffro

Jorden:

there would have to be 'prophecies' that they have deliberately decided to try to claim to fulfill, if that was the case, right?

For the benefit of other readers, no, there only needs to be some passage that is being reinterpreted as a prophecy about an unrelated subject, i.e., eisegesis.

But I’m not going to entertain further discussion about the ‘new world order’ nonsense.

Jorden

I’m not going to entertain further discussion about the ‘new world order’ nonsense.

How it is nonsense? I am asking you about a real entity/organization that was created/founded in 1945 and still exists today. I am asking you about what 3 real men/people said about what the purpose of that entity/organization was created/founded for.

In regard to that you won't discuss/answer questions, but yet you will answer/discuss in regard to a book/dates/beliefs that you believe are false/nonsense.

🤦‍♂️

Do you think that if there is a 3rd world war that during that time that that event/circumstance will be used to then make the UN become the entity that it was created for AFTER WW2 and has been working toward being since that time?

Jorden

It does but you don’t like it because JW derive 1914 from 70 so you don’t like 1914 or JW.

Yes, Fisherman, JW's derive 1914 from the 70. And what do they say about 1914:

They say Jesus came then and Rev 11:15 was fulfilled then. Also, that the 42-months started then in 1914 and ended in 1918 and that those 42-months served as a refining period and that is why/how they got to be approved/appointed in 1919.

[11 -1- 02 WT – In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”]
[w14 11/15 p. 30 - Interestingly, Revelation 11:1, 2 links these events to a time when the spiritual temple would be measured, or evaluated. Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4)]
[w94 8/1 p. 31 - So we have prophecies dealing with a comparable period at Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, and Revelation 11:2, 3, as well as at Revelation 13:5. Our publications have shown that all of these found fulfillment in the 1914-18 period.]

Notice that they not only say that the 42-month period Rev 11:2 where the holy city is trampled took place in 1914-1918 period, but they also say that the 42-month period Rev 13:5 that the wild beast gets his authority also took place during 1914-1918.

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city+ underfoot for 42 months.]

[Revelation 13:5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months.+ 6And it opened its mouth in blasphemies+ against God to blaspheme his name and his dwelling place, even those residing in heaven.+ 7It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them]

With that shown the WTS teaching shows that the 42-months that holy city/holy ones are trampled/conquered took place in 1914-1918. Also, it shows that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1914.
Ok now notice the following:

[7-15-51 WT- At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’(Revelation 11:15)]

There they are saying that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1918. That means it was not fulfilled in 1914.

607 >>2,520years>>>1914(Rev 11:15)

607 >>2,523 1/2 years>>1918(Rev 11:15)

The reason they claim that Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1918 is because they teach that the 42-months were in 1914-1918 and know that Rev 11:15 7th trumpet has to blow AFTER the 42-months associated 2nd woe that takes place during the 6th trumpet has to end BEFORE the 7th trumpet'3rd woe can come.

[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]

[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.] (1914-1918)

[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.] (1918)

The WTS of 51 correctly places Rev 11:15 AFTER the 42-months/2nd woe past. The question now were the 42-months fulfilled 1914-1918?

Well, I have shown that they say the 42-months in Rev 13:5 that the wild beast conquers the holy ones, they say that happen in 1914-1918, BUT, I have also shown that they say that the UN will be given authority to act as the 8th king and that this is still future.

They say the UN is the wild beast. That being so, then since the UN didn't exist during 1914-1918 and since it is the wild beast that is given authority for 42-months and being that it is said that the UN will recieve athourtiy in the future, then all of this means that the 42-months didn't take place in 1914-1918. They will take place in the future when the UN is empowered. And then AFTER the 42-months/2nd woe of the UN comes to an end THEN as the WTS of 51 rightful makes clear, that is when Rev 11:15 is fulfilled.

[7-1-84 WT p. 12-13 par. 18 – As John the apostle saw it in vision, “the kings of the earth,” the political powers of the UN ‘wild beast,’ will gather to wage war against God’s enthroned “King of kings and Lord of lords.” That will be the signal for Har–Magedon, “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” It will bring annihilation to all of Satan’s forces on earth and salvation to “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah.”—Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11, 16, 19-21; Romans 10:13.]

Note that the WTS say that the UN is the wild beast. Also note the Scriptures cited in that paragraph. It shows that that wild beast is thrown into the fiery lake. It is the wild beast that is gets thrown into the lake that is the one that gets authority for 42-months and during such time of authority is when the 'mark' is given.

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation…19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]

No 'mark' was given out during 1914-1918 and UN didn't exist back then. And the fact that the wild beast that gets the 42-month authority (Rev 13:5) has to be on hand when Jesus comes in order to be thrown into the fiery lake, confirms that the 42-months did not take place in 1914-1918 but are future when the UN receives it said authority that the WTS indeed teaches will happen.

[1-15-00 WT – Here the apostle John mentions seven kings, representing seven world powers—Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and the Anglo-American dual world power. He also sees “an eighth king” that “springs from the seven.” This eighth king—the last one that John envisions—now represents the United Nations. John says that this eighth king “goes off into destruction,” after which no further earthly kings are mentioned.]

[Revelation 17:11 And the wild beast…it is also itself an eighth king…and it goes off into destruction…13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.]

Since that is last and final king (UN) then it's going off into destruction has to be in the future when Jesus comes.

[Revelation 19: 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.]

The wild beast getting thrown into the fiery lake is when it goes off into destruction when Jesus comes.

[Revelation Climax – As John soon learns, the time will come when the UN will act with considerable authority. Then it, in its turn, “goes off into destruction.”]
[6-15-12 WT – Any power it (8th king/U.N.) has comes from its member nations, especially from its key backer, the Anglo-American World Power. (Rev. 17:10, 11) But it does receive authority to act as a king to carry out a specific task, one that triggers a chain of events that will change history.]

[Revelation 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given it (wild beast), and authority to act forty-two months was given it. 6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme his name and his residence, even those residing in heaven. 7 And there was granted it to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation]

The 42-month period did not take place during 1914-1918. That authority is given to the UN 'wild beast' in the future as a result of WW3.

[Revelation 17:13 These have one thought, and so they give their power and authority to the wild beast.]

[The UN’s chief painted a grim picture of a divided and polarised world and urged solidarity among nations.]
[urging all 193 member states to “wake up” and realise that solidarity is the only way out of disaster.]

_________

For non-believes in the God/Bible, that's fine keep not believing. This is not about trying to convince you to believe in either. Bible and Scriptures aside this is the reality of the world we are living in at this time. You can see it in their own words. You can see it in the news.

But for JW's this shows that defending 607 is pointless because you only need 607 to arrive at 1914, to then say that 1914-1918 was the refining to then appointment WTS in 1919.

But the refining/42-months did not take place in 1914-1918, it is still future, so there is no basis for claiming there was appointment in 1919 for the WTS.

There is no basis for claiming Rev 11:15 was fulfilled in 1914. Your own WTS stated themselves in the 51 WT that it was fulfilled in 1918. So, 607 does not work for that year.

And if you say that the 51 WT was a mistake Rev 11:15 was not fulfilled in 1918 but it was fulfilled in 1914, that is fine I will allow for that, but then you would also have to move the 42-months back to be in line with Rev 11:15 taking place in 1914. The 42-months would have to be from 1911 - 1914. The 51 WT was not wrong in saying that Rev 11:15 is fulfilled AFTER the 1,260 days/42-months.

But there is no basis for saying the 42-months were from 1911-1914. Instead, what you actually believe is that the 42-months that are said to occur during the 6th trumpet/2nd woe started in Oct 1914, and Rev 11:15 the 7th trumpet/3rd woe also occurred then in Oct 1914.

You choose to believe that nonsense even thou the Scriptures are clear that the 42-months/2nd woe is said to end/past and THEN the 7th trumpet occurs.

[Revelation 9:13 And the sixth angel blew his trumpet.]
[Revelation 11:2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.]
[Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.]
[Revelation 11:15 “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.]

I will tell you that it is better to be a non-believer now with the right heart condition, that just does not believe because they are so turned off by all the lies and nonsense taught in religion, then it is to be someone who claims to believe now but accepts and teaches those lies and nonsense. 1 john 4:1 Romans 3:4 Acts 17:11

Ezekiel 13:1-16

Jeffro

Jorden:

How it is nonsense? I am asking you about a real entity/organization that was created/founded in 1945 and still exists today. I am asking you about what 3 real men/people said about what the purpose of that entity/organization was created/founded for.

Your pet topic is widely recognised as a conspiracy theory, and I am not interested in the subject. The fact that an organisation exists or that some individuals have opinions (fallacious argument from authority) doesn’t justify the conspiracy theory. Similarly, vague statements about ‘solidarity’ are not evidence of a plot for world domination. Your attachment of the conspiracy to unrelated Bible passages further reduces your credibility. Hence I will not be humouring you further on the matter.

You have shown that the JW interpretation of the 42 months is obviously wrong, which is good. But then you have associated it with an alternative superstition, which benefits no one.

Scholar and Fisherman

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