What's So Special About These One's?

by Englishman 19 Replies latest jw friends

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  Englishman

  I’m intrigued by the JW’s teachings re the 144,000 and I would much appreciate some input.

  I mean, is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from Earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?

  Also, how does this “remnant” become aware that they have a calling? Does the WTBTS tend not to persecute these one’s, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?

  What is the point of this select group, when they receive their heavenly reward what do they actually DO all day? What is their “raison d’etre”, and are they, whilst alive on Earth, considered as being exceptionally possessing of God-like qualities?

  Englishman.
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  terraly

  Well, it is interesting that the WT takes 144,000 as a literal number, while they treat the "Jewish", "male" and "virgin" parts of the passage as figurative.

  Obviously picking some select group to identify with is a good strategy for some small group of bible students- it gives them a feeling that they are special and unique, and have a place in the whole Biblical scheme of things. This strategy backfires if this group is a limited number and the students get too large. This is where the rather ad hoc "two hopes" strategy comes from.

  At least in practical terms, they use some scriptures to justify it (I'm sure others can provide better details), but it's interesting to look at the underlying motivation for why they came up with this doctrine in the first place- it influences which scriptures they use to construct it.
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  philo

  :how does this “remnant” become aware that they have a calling?

  My impression was that these ones were overshadowed by a particular gooiness such that as they read particular bits of scripture they fairly dripped with it. Any who failed to drip sufficiently were labelled, 'professed anointed'. Amazingly, we had TWO in our congregation, both old (but not old enough), both tough bitches, and I quite liked 'em.

  :Does the WTBTS tend not to persecute these one’s, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others

  I think there's a little more lattitude given to these. It depends whether they are really accepted as 'real' anointed in the first place. Otherwise only party lining will do.

  philo
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  Liberty

  Hi Englishman,

  I'm no expert but it doesn't surprise me that you would have a hard time getting a straight answer to this subject from active JW's as it is so kooky even they don't completely understand it. Whenever some newly baptized one would ask this in the old days(late 60's early 70's) they would recieve a cold disapproving look and the sharp response,"Well, if you have to ask, then obviously you aren't so don't worry about it." I knew a couple of these "anointed" from our congregation and they were ancient as Hell even 30 years ago. Really old folks, who were in before there were two classes, were better accepted/respected/believed than younger people who made this claim. We had a young elder(late 20's) and his wife come in from California and they both claimed to be of the "anointed" but the coincidence of a husband and wife team along with their age and arogance made many suspect that they may not "really" be of the anointed but this was just quietly whispered about. In any case, it was always said that these old faithfuls who'd been in since the teens and twenties were the proof that Armegeddon was near as they were very old and frail and would not all pass away before the "End" was fullfilled because they were a part of that "Generation" who saw Christ enthroned.. Well, needless to say, they are all long since dead and still no big "A". That's what their main significance was to us back then but this is outdated now.

  They were not treated that differently by the Society as I recall and if they were too divergent from the party line they would be candidates for the "Evil Slave Class" the most hated and vile thing a human could be according to JW's so most "anointed" didn't rock the boat because of this nasty label which wouldn't apply to some run of the mill earthly hope sinner/apostate. In essence, the average JW could sin and stray but be forgiven but one of the "anointed" were pretty much damned if they ever fell of the wagon cause they "knew better".

  Part of the myth of how the Organization was supposidely "directed" by Jehovah was that the anointed somehow recieved "spirit direction" which was then somehow transmitted to the Society through mystical means. There was no such arrangement of coarse, but us dumb JW's believed it worked that way. It is now clear that the Society has always been directed by one or a few in the leadership who ran things their way despite what the majority of the anointed might think. We were in awe of these old anointeds because we could only imagine what it must feel like to rule from Heaven with Christ when they died and to be part of the spirit network directing the work here while they were alive. I think the Evil Slave thing worked in the leadership's favor to keep the anointed in their place and humble so they wouldn't spill the beans about the real truth of their glories yet hollow influence within JWdom.
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  rutht

  My jw mil told me they use Ro. 8:16 to know who is of the annointed.
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  Francois

  "Their" is no meaning to the twisted dreams of an old man in his dotage writing about things he didn't understand, interpreted by old men in their dotage who have an agenda, for an organization of people who have no insight.

  Since we're dealing in opinions, it's mine that when we die we go to the next rung on an almost infinite ladder, at the top of which is the center of all things and the "location" of God.

  The twelve dozen means nothing. Complex theologies mean nothing. We die; we go to the next step; and we continue thus with our universe career, an all but eternal cosmic adventure. What FUN!! I can hardly wait.

  Francois
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  Amazing

  Hi Englishman: Here is a stab at some answers to your questions.

  You asked, "... is their any real scriptural back-up to say that a set number of people will go from Earth to heaven, or is this just a witness interpretation thing?"

  Rev. 7:4 and Rev. 14:1 are the ONLY verses in the Bible that discuss the 144,000 where a specific number is mentioned. In both cases this group is mentioned as being in heaven or with the Lamb (aka Jesus). One can conclude that this 'group' goes to heaven, but the attributes given to them are also applied to the Great Crowd. Depending on one's interpretation, the number 144,000 is either symbolic or literal. The literal is what the Watch Tower promotes, but they are one shaky ground. A symbolic number is far easier to support. Other than these two verses, the 144,000 are never discussed in the rest of the Bible, nor in secular writings by the early Christians (or at least few secular writings, but hardly known or accepted.)

  You asked, "Also, how does this “remnant” become aware that they have a calling?"

  Important to understand this: The JW anointing process is virtually identical to the rest of Christendom. I professed this calling for over 20 years as a JW. When one reads the Bible and puts faith in Jesus Christ as their mediator, they are adopted into God's family and called a 'son' or 'child' of God. Anointing is the 'spirit' of adoption. This 'spirit' means that your mental and emotional response to this feature of faith is positive, that is you identify with it, and recognize that it applies to you. Simple.

  It can be illustrated this way: If you are on a trip with a friend who has the same first and last name as you, say, Mike Jones. Your respective fathers also have the same name, say Tom. A letter comes addressed to Mike Jones from Tom Jones (typed). You and your friend both read the letter together. But, one of you will recognize that the letter is not intended for you, and the other will easily recognize what his own father would say to him. The letter might contain things that apply to both, but it will primarily be directed at only one of you. You, say are the Mike that the letter is intended for, and you will identify with your own father, and respond that way.

  This is the best illustration of the Watch Tower premise of how the Anointed know they are such. In Christendon, when you read what the father has to say in the Bible, you respond out of faith and understand that you have become anointed. But in Christendom, they do not make any big deal out of this feature as it is only one way to characterize an otherwise multi-faceted relationship.

  The reason that so-called non-anointed JWs of the Other Sheep are so unclear and confused about this calling is that the Watch Tower steps into the middle of that relationship and scares the beejeebers out of them so that they are afriad to respond positively to the Christian hope. As a result, a mystery is created where none ought to exist.

  You asked, "Does the WTBTS tend not to persecute these one’s, if they hold views that would be deemed as apostate in others?"

  Far from it. One who professes anointing and holds so-called 'apostate' views is often treated with ever greater suspecion and just as harshly as the Other Sheep class.

  You asked, "What is the point of this select group, when they receive their heavenly reward what do they actually DO all day?"

  Help run the government. Anything from the heavenly mail room, to the conference center where high level executive decisions are made. Building codes, freeway construction, and of course teaching and training the newly resurrected.

  you asked, "What is their “raison d’etre”, and are they, whilst alive on Earth, considered as being exceptionally possessing of God-like qualities?"

  This is a common JW belief, and becausde of some misconceptions, JWs of the Other Sheep will often see 'better' qaulities in those professing anointing, but it is more like a placebo effect. They believe they are better, so they see better things in them. In truth, and even in WTS literature, anointed are technically no better than anyone else, they merely were lucky enough to win the Big Spiritual Lottery in the Sky.

  Amazing
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  crossroads

  Can anyone show me where in the bible the 144,000
  and anionted hook up? Please no thus and so insight
  non-reasoning please just the scripture. Because the
  way Revelation starts the 144,000 have yet to be chosen
  yet virtually all apostles are dead. I do believe the apostles
  were anointed but how could they be part of something
  that had not occured as yet. The 144,000 were alive at
  time of marking. ANYONE
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  Englishman

  Amazing and all,

  Many thanks for the explanations, particularly to Amazing, my best pal is actually named Mike Jones! He works and drinks with me in my local pub.

  True insight, Amazing, dont suppose you've "missed your calling", have you?

  HA HA!

  Englishman.
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  Sunbeam

  Hi Englishman

  This is a subject that I've looked into too. I hope I haven't got the wrong end of the stick, but I think you are asking what the bible says about the issue. If I'm wrong, please ignore the rest of this post :-(

  From the point of view of mainstream Christianity (Protestants, Baptists, whatever) the whole 'anointed' experience is your bog standard Christian experience. How does the affected person know about it? It's undeniable. God breaks into your life and shakes it up. It happens in a different way for everyone, but it has the same effect.

  The JW's don't want anyone to catch on to the fact that it's freely available to everyone who seeks it. They used to teach that it was only available to 144,000, who would all be JW's - obviously. Then the society grew beyond 144,000. Oops! But what do you know, at just the right time God gave them new light. Allegedly, there was *another* set of (2nd class) Christians, who would obey these 144,000. Phew, panic over.

  As Amazing says, if you look at the scriptures, the Greek behind them, etc you find that the great crowd and the 144,000 are all in the same place - the kingdom of God - variously called heaven, Jerusalem, Mount Zion etc. They live happily ever after with Jesus. From a Christian's point of view, that's all that they need to know. They will be with Jesus forever, so they don't care where they are and what they've got to do all day. Heck, Man U could win the cup for the rest of eternity and it just wouldn't bother them :-).

  What happens to them whilst they are still here? They receive the gift of the holy spirit - i.e. they are inextricably linked to God and develop a father:child relationship with him. The spirit helps them to understand the bible, what God's will is and begins to change them from the inside. They gradually become more Christlike as they get to know him better. But they still have their own will, so often still go their own way and ignore what the spirit is saying (i.e. sin). That's why they can seem like hypocrits (sp?). But God loves them anyway, 'cos he wants children not robots. (i.e. doctrine of salvation by faith vs the JW's doctrine of salvation by obeying the borg).

  If you want to look up the theology, it's all in the justified/sanctified/glorified section (the 3 stages of being saved from the 1st moment of believing to the arriving in heaven bit).

  To explain the 144,000 thing. Revelation is fond of numbers, especially 7 (signifies perfection and hence the imperfection of the beast - 666) and 12 (disciples, tribes, thrones, gates to Jerusalem, etc). 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes is 144,000. It's a symbolic thing.

  Englishwoman
  xxx