Jeffroan hour ago🤦♂️
Please just go away.
This will happen when nobody responds, lol. Quit feeding the trolls ;)
E.
Babylon The Great
by EisMe 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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EisMe
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TonusOH
EisMe: The data I shared regarding global warming was relevant only to 7000 years, which is the time period that humans have lived upon this planet.
Yeah, that's the problem: your claim is incorrect. Don't use old books written by people who didn't understand their world to make predictions many centuries later. We have plenty of examples of why this doesn't work. Yours will be yet another.
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EisMe
TonusOHan hour agoEisMe: The data I shared regarding global warming was relevant only to 7000 years, which is the time period that humans have lived upon this planet.
Yeah, that's the problem: your claim is incorrect. Don't use old books written by people who didn't understand their world to make predictions many centuries later. We have plenty of examples of why this doesn't work. Yours will be yet another.TonusOH, I appreciate your engagement with this discussion.
You raise an important challenge—questioning the validity of using ancient texts to interpret modern events. It’s a fair concern, given how far society has progressed in technology and scientific understanding. However, dismissing prophecy outright overlooks one key pattern: time has continuously validated biblical warnings about global crises.
Throughout history, prophecy has been met with skepticism. Yet events repeatedly unfold in ways that align with ancient descriptions. Revelation 16:8-9 warns of intense heat scorching people—today, we witness unprecedented global temperatures. Isaiah 24:5-6 speaks of the earth being defiled—environmental destruction is now at crisis levels.
What makes this discussion more compelling today is the advent of AI—a tool that allows for deeper analysis of ancient texts, historical records, and global trends. Through AI-driven comparisons, we can see patterns that may have been overlooked in previous generations. Instead of rejecting prophecy outright, wouldn’t it be worth exploring how AI can uncover insights that link the past with the present?
Is it possible that ancient wisdom carries foresight beyond what modern perspectives allow? Should prophecy be dismissed simply because it predates scientific methods, or does its alignment with global events demand consideration?
I welcome further discussion on this. What evidence would convince you that prophecy might hold patterns worth recognizing?
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Jeffro
EisMe:
This will happen when nobody responds, lol. Quit feeding the trolls
Such refreshing self-awareness. 😒
But that's really just a ploy to leave your drivel unchallenged in the end.
Just go away.
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Vanderhoven7
Here is a great commentary by GAI
Although the identity of Babylon the Great and the "Harlot" or "Great Prostitute" in Revelation 17 is a subject of ongoing debate among biblical scholars and theologians, a significant body of thought, supported by various biblical arguments, points to apostate Israel, and specifically Jerusalem, as the Harlot.
Here's a breakdown of the evidence
1. Consistent Old Testament Imagery:
- Harlotry as Idolatry: The Old Testament frequently uses the metaphor of "harlotry" or "adultery" to describe Israel's unfaithfulness to God through idolatry and pursuing alliances with other nations. Prophets like Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel extensively employ this imagery (e.g., Jeremiah 2:20-24; 3:2-3; Ezekiel 16:1-43; 23). This strong precedent suggests that when John uses "harlot" in Revelation, he is drawing on this established biblical motif to describe spiritual unfaithfulness.
- Israel as God's Bride: In the Old Testament, Israel is often depicted as God's chosen bride, uniquely covenanted to Him. Her turning away to other gods is therefore seen as spiritual adultery, hence the "harlot" imagery. This covenant relationship makes the term "harlot" particularly fitting for Israel when she becomes unfaithful, as opposed to other nations who were never in such a covenant.
2. Parallels with Ezekiel 16 and 23:
- Many scholars highlight the striking parallels between Revelation 17 and Ezekiel 16 and 23, which graphically describe Jerusalem's (and Samaria's) spiritual harlotry. The language and themes of prostitution, lavish adornment, and judgment for unfaithfulness are strongly echoed in Revelation.
3. "Drunk with the Blood of the Saints and Prophets" (Revelation 17:6):
- This is a key verse for those who see Israel as the Harlot. Throughout biblical history, it was often Jerusalem and the Jewish leaders who persecuted and killed the prophets (e.g., Matthew 23:37-38; Luke 13:33-34). The early Christian persecution also originated significantly within Jewish communities who opposed the followers of Jesus. This aligns with the Harlot being "drunk with the blood of the saints and of the martyrs of Jesus."
4. "The Great City Where Our Lord Was Crucified" (Revelation 11:8):
- While Revelation 17 explicitly calls the Harlot "Babylon the Great," Revelation 11:8 refers to "the great city where their Lord was crucified." This location is unequivocally Jerusalem. For some, this link suggests that the Harlot, while referred to as "Babylon" (a symbolic name for a persecuting power), ultimately represents Jerusalem in its apostate state.
5. Symbolic Meaning of "Babylon":
- Those who argue for Israel as the Harlot often contend that "Babylon" in Revelation is not literal Babylon or even necessarily literal Rome, but a symbolic name for a corrupt religious and political system that opposes God and persecutes His people. Given Israel's historical role and eventual rejection of Messiah, some see Jerusalem as having become "Babylonian" in its spiritual character.
6. Scholarly Support:
- Several biblical scholars and theologians, particularly those from a preterist or partial-preterist interpretive viewpoint, have argued for Jerusalem/apostate Israel as the Harlot. Some notable names include:
- David Chilton (e.g., The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation)
- J. Massyngberde Ford (Revelation in the Anchor Bible series)
- Kenneth Gentry (e.g., Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation)
- J. Stuart Russell (The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Return)
Conclusion:
While the identification of the Harlot in Revelation varies among scholars, the arguments for apostate Israel/Jerusalem are compelling, primarily due to the consistent use of "harlotry" imagery for Israel in the Old Testament, the parallels with Ezekiel's prophecies, and the references to the blood of saints and prophets. Understanding this perspective requires a careful examination of biblical typology and the symbolic language of Revelation.
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TonusOH
Sorry, I missed this response the first time around.
EisMe: Should prophecy be dismissed simply because it predates scientific methods, or does its alignment with global events demand consideration?
Vague statements that are open to wide interpretation are useless as prophecies, because they can only really be validated in hindsight. Thus, you cannot make reliable predictions from them, as we have seen happen repeatedly for centuries. Every time someone predicts the end of the world, they are wrong. At some point, one must accept that these predictions are based on writings that are being misinterpreted or misunderstood, or which are themselves wrong.
Because of this, it makes no sense to believe anyone who is predicting the future based on these writings. Dozens --if not hundreds, or even thousands-- of people have tried and gotten it wrong. The only way to know for sure is after it actually happens. Which, as I already pointed out, makes the whole endeavor moot.
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Vanderhoven7
Wow! Beautiful version V!
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Vanderhoven7
Babylon The Great is Apostate Israel/Jerusalem
Summary of Evidence (from Bible Prophecy Site)
1. Jerusalem rules the nations through its commerce, especially lending money.Deuteronomy 15:6 For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.
2. Jerusalem kills the prophets and saints.
3. Jerusalem is the "great city" where Jesus was killed.
4. Jerusalem sits on 7 mountains.
5. Jerusalem is described as a whore in the Bible.
6. Jerusalem's priests wore purple, red, precious stones, and gold.
7. Jerusalem drinks the cup of wrath.
8. Jerusalem's lovers, the kings of the earth, turn on her to destroy her.
9. Jerusalem is called "Babylon" by Peter in 1 Peter 5:13 -
Sea Breeze
Rome is the best fit in my opinion. Consider:
Wikipedia states: “Many Biblical scholars believe that ‘Babylon’ is a metaphor for the pagan Roman Empire at the time it persecuted Christians, before the Edict of Milan in 313. . . Perhaps specifically referencing some aspect of Rome’s rule (brutality, greed, paganism). . . In 4 Ezra, 2 Baruch, and the Sibylline Oracles, ‘Babylon’ is a cryptic name for Rome. Reinhard Feldmeier speculates that ‘Babylon’ is used to refer to Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. In Revelation 17:9 it is said that she sits on ‘seven mountains,’ typically understood as the seven hills of Rome. A Roman coin minted under the Emperor Vespasian (ca. 70 AD) depicts Rome as a woman sitting on seven hills.”
According to the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: “The characteristics ascribed to this Babylon apply to Rome rather than to any other city of that age: (a) as ruling over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18); (b) as sitting on seven mountains (Revelation 17:9); (c) as the center of the world’s merchandise (Revelation 18:3, 11–13); (d) as the corrupter of the nations (Revelation 17:2; 18:3; 19:2); (e) as the persecutor of the saints (Revelation 17:6).”
According to Eusebius of Caesarea, Babylon would be Rome or the Roman Empire: “And Peter makes mention of Mark in his first epistle which they say that he wrote in Rome itself, as is indicated by him, when he calls the city, by a figure, Babylon, as he does in the following words: ‘The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, salutes you; and so does Marcus my son (1 Peter 5:13).'”
