2 Peter 1: 1 Corruption in the NWT

by Sea Breeze 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    aq, quit cutting and pasting. Write concisely and to the point.

    @vienne,

    Do you realize how ignorant you look by constantly telling your opponents what they can and cannot do? Asking for a friend.

    BTTT,

    Here are some quotes from early church fathers that mention both God and Jesus Christ as Savior:
    Ignatius of Antioch, who died around 98/117 AD, referred to Jesus Christ in several ways, including as "Jesus Christ our Lord," "Our God, Jesus Christ," "Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise," and "Jesus Christ, our God".

    Irenaeus of Lyons, living from approximately 115 to 190 AD, spoke of Jesus Christ as "the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation" and "Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King". He also stated that Jesus is uniquely "in his own right God and Lord".

    Clement of Alexandria (c. 153 - 217 AD) described Jesus as "the Word... both God and man, and the source of all our good things". He also called Jesus "the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God".

    Tertullian, active from around 160 to 215 AD, believed that "this one only God has also a Son, His Word," who was "born of [the Virgin]-being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ".

    These selections illustrate how early church leaders perceived Jesus Christ as both God and the key figure in salvation.
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Posting AI garbage helps nobody. You perhaps think it looks clever and is a morale boost for ‘your side’, but in reality nobody is reading it all including, ironically, probably the poster who is posting it himself. Nothing it says can be relied upon. If it says a scholar takes a position who knows if the scholar really holds that view. If it quotes somebody it’s hit and miss if it’s a real quote. And if you read it carefully, and are not just impressed by the formatting, you realise that the conclusions don’t always follow from the points made. It’s a complete waste of everyone’s time and a real disservice to people who are actually interested in the truth the about the subjects we’re discussing.

  • Earnest
    Earnest
    aqwsed12345 : The attempt to ... [treat] θεός as if it were a proper name founders ... In 2 Peter itself the title is freely modified (“the eternal God,” “the word of God”), behavior that proper names do not exhibit.

    2 Peter does not use the expression "the eternal God" while "the word of Jehovah" occurs multiple times in the Hebrew scriptures. It is an expression which would have been familiar to Peter's Jewish readers and they would have identified "God" ("τοῦ Θεοῦ") with the same person (Jehovah).

    aqwsed12345 : The opening verse, uniquely among Petrine salutations, pairs “God” with “Savior” and immediately appends “Jesus Christ”, a pattern that everywhere else in the letter denotes a single person.

    When you say "pattern" you mean "Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ". "Lord Jesus Christ" occurs three times in the same chapter (vss 8,14,16). "God Jesus Christ" doesn't occur anywhere in the NT. It is a different pattern with "God" clearly distinct from Jesus as in vs 2.

    aqwsed12345 : Sharp himself excluded translation Greek and generics from his rule; the example therefore lies outside the class to which 2 Peter 1:1 belongs.

    What do you mean he excluded translation Greek and generics. I think you're making this up as we go along. "God" is either generic or refers to a person ("God the Father" or "God the Son" in your terms) so in both cases Sharp's rule doesn't apply anyway.

    aqwsed12345 : Historical reception corroborates the grammatical conclusion. The earliest extant commentary on 2 Peter, Clement of Alexandria’s Hypotyposes (frg. 38), cites the verse as calling Christ “our God and Savior

    The Hypotyposes of Clement of Alexandria is one of his lost works. It still existed in the 9th century, when Photius read it, but probably perished with so much else in the sack of Constantinople. Perhaps your source did not know that?

    aqwsed12345 : Modern translations that separate the titles rely not on Greek grammar but on theological preference.

    Does this include the Catholic Public Domain Version which reads "... in the justice of our God and in our Savior Jesus Christ"?

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    @Earnest

    The clause το θεο μν κα σωτρος ησο Χριστο in 2 Peter 1:1 belongs to a class of Koine constructions that link two singular, personal, common nouns by καί under a single article. Wherever such TSKS strings occur in original—i.e., non-translation—Greek prose, the two nouns designate the same person; no uncontested counter-example has been produced from Hellenistic literature, the NT corpus, or the apostolic fathers. When a translator separates the titles in English, he must supply an additional article that the source text does not contain, thereby overriding the grammar in favor of a theological judgment. The objections advanced to justify that maneuver do not bear scrutiny.

    The suggestion that θεός in 2 Peter functions as a proper name and so lies outside Sharp’s parameters is vitiated by the syntax of the letter itself. Proper names in Greek never admit a first-person possessive, yet the phrase here is το θεο μν; the possessive marks θεός as a common noun. Moreover, when Peter wishes to differentiate Jesus from the Father, he does so by duplicating the article, as in 1:2 το θεο κα ησο το κυρίου μν—a construction that does not come under Sharp’s rule because a proper name follows καί. The contrast between the single-article form in v. 1 and the dual-article form in v. 2 therefore supports, rather than undermines, the traditional unity reading in the salutation.

    Appeal to the absence of the literal string “God Jesus Christ” is misplaced. Sharp’s canon concerns article distribution, not raw collocation. In the same epistle “Lord Jesus Christ” appears both with and without a second article (1:11; 3:18 versus 1:2), showing that Petrine style treats the article—not mere juxtaposition—as the signal of distinction or unity. When exactly the same grammatical frame is filled by θεός κα σωτήρ plus the proper name, the presumption of single reference is obligatory unless an unambiguous counter-indicator can be produced; none has been offered.

    The proverb cited from the LXX (“fear the God and the king,” Prov 24:21) is irrelevant. Sharp himself excluded translation Greek because its wording may mechanically reflect Semitic doublets without regard to Greek idiom; he likewise excluded plural or non-personal generics. Second-Peter is neither translation Greek nor generic: θεός and σωτήρ are singular, personal, and common. The LXX example therefore lies outside the data set to which the rule is applied, and its syntax cannot be used to overturn it.

    Historical reception weighs in the same direction. Although Clement of Alexandria’s Hypotyposes survives only in fragments, patristic writers who cite 2 Peter unanimously treat το θεο μν κα σωτρος as a Christological title. Eusebius (HE II.1), Didymus (ad Trin. II.13) and, more pointedly, Athanasius (C. Arian. I.60) all quote the verse as proof that the apostle calls Jesus “our God and Savior.” These authors wrote a century apart, in independent exegetical contexts, and yet show no knowledge of an alternative reading. That trajectory would be inexplicable had the phrase been understood to name two persons.

    Your critique asserts that the Hypotyposes is a lost work, still extant in the 9th century when Photius read it, but likely perished during the sack of Constantinople, casting doubt on the reliability of citing fragment 38 as evidence for Clement’s interpretation of 2 Peter 1:1. While it is accurate that the Hypotyposes is not preserved in its entirety, Jana Plátová’s article clarifies the status of its fragments, providing a scholarly foundation to challenge the critique’s skepticism. According to Plátová, Otto Stählin’s critical edition in the Die Griechischen Christlichen Schriftsteller (GCS) series identifies 24 fragments of the Hypotyposes, varying in length from brief lines to more substantial passages (page 3). These fragments are derived from various sources, including later citations and manuscript traditions, indicating that portions of the text survived in quoted or paraphrased forms despite the loss of the complete work. The claim that the Hypotyposes “still existed in the 9th century, when Photius read it” aligns with historical evidence, as Photius, in his Bibliotheca (codex 109), indeed references reading the Hypotyposes. However, the suggestion that it “probably perished” during the sack of Constantinople (1204 or 1453, unspecified in the critique) is speculative and does not negate the existence of fragments preserved elsewhere.

    Plátová’s discussion of Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History (page 2) further supports the reliability of citing fragments of the Hypotyposes. Eusebius lists the Hypotyposes among Clement’s works, describing it as a concise commentary on Scripture, which corroborates its historical significance and the likelihood that its contents were quoted by later authors, including Photius. The critique’s doubt about fragment 38’s authenticity or accessibility is undermined by the scholarly consensus, as reflected in Plátová’s analysis, that fragments of the Hypotyposes were transmitted through various channels, including ecclesiastical writers and manuscript traditions. While the complete Hypotyposes is lost, the preservation of specific fragments, such as those compiled by Stählin, suggests that fragment 38 could be a legitimate citation, likely drawn from a source like Photius or another intermediary. The critique’s implication that the loss of the full text invalidates references to its fragments overlooks the standard practice in patristic studies of relying on such fragments to reconstruct an author’s views.

    Moreover, Plátová notes the discovery of additional fragments beyond Stählin’s 24, including those identified by Riedinger, who proposes 24 potential texts, some paralleling Clement’s other works like the Stromata and Paedagogus (pages 6, 8). While she questions the authenticity of some of these (e.g., fragments 23 and 24, page 4), the broader point is that the Hypotyposes’s fragmentary survival is well-documented. The critique’s dismissal of fragment 38 as unreliable due to the work’s loss fails to account for this scholarly tradition of working with extant fragments. Even if fragment 38’s precise content or attribution requires scrutiny, its citation in the context of 2 Peter 1:1, as noted by the original claim, is plausible within the framework of early Christian exegesis, where Clement’s theological perspective often emphasized Christ’s divinity, consistent with interpreting “our God and Savior” as referring to Jesus.

    The critique’s reference to the sack of Constantinople as the likely cause of the Hypotyposes’s loss introduces an unnecessary assumption. Plátová’s article does not address the sack specifically, but her discussion of the fragments’ survival through various sources implies that their transmission predates such events. For instance, the Eclogae Propheticae, sometimes considered part of or related to the Hypotyposes, contains additional texts that scholars like Plátová evaluate for authenticity (page 13). This suggests a robust tradition of preservation, likely through copies or citations in other works, which counters the critique’s implication that the Hypotyposes’s loss renders its fragments inaccessible or dubious. The critique’s point about Photius reading the work in the 9th century actually supports the argument that its contents were known and circulated well before any potential destruction in 1204 or 1453, reinforcing the plausibility of fragment 38’s citation.

    Hence, the critique’s challenge to the use of fragment 38 from Clement’s Hypotyposes is unpersuasive. Plátová’s article demonstrates that, despite the Hypotyposes being a lost work in its complete form, its fragments are well-attested in scholarly editions and historical sources, including Eusebius and Photius. The critique’s speculation about the work’s destruction during the sack of Constantinople does not undermine the established tradition of citing its fragments, nor does it disprove the specific claim that fragment 38 interprets 2 Peter 1:1 as applying to Christ. The survival of 24 fragments in Stählin’s edition, alongside potential additional texts, supports the scholarly practice of referencing such fragments, rendering the original claim about Clement’s interpretation historically and textually credible. Thus, the critique’s objections fail to invalidate the use of fragment 38 as evidence in the debate over 2 Peter 1:1’s interpretation.

    The assertion that modern translations separating the titles rest on grammatical rather than doctrinal grounds is disproved by the history of the Vulgate. Jerome’s Greek Vorlage forced him to render “iustitia Dei nostri et Salvatoris Iesu Christi”; the singular genitive nostri binds the two nouns exactly as the article does in Greek. Douay-Rheims, Knox, NAB, RNJB, and the current Editio Typica of the Latin liturgy all follow suit. The English “Catholic Public Domain Version” cited in objection is a private, non-ecclesial production that inserts a second preposition and thus rewrites the verse; its wording carries no textual authority.

    Finally, the alleged absence of the phrase “eternal God” from 2 Peter is beside the point: the critique had invoked that label to deny that θεός can be modified like a proper name; whether or not the exact collocation appears in this short letter, θεός in the NT is repeatedly qualified (“living,” “blessed,” “immortal”), confirming its status as a descriptive noun, not a rigid personal name. The possessive μν in v. 1 seals that conclusion.

    In sum, the syntactic structure, internal contrast with v. 2, absence of genuine counter-examples, and uniform early reception converge on one reading: το θεο μν κα σωτρος ησο Χριστο identifies a single referent. The NWT’s insertion of an unwarranted article reflects doctrinal scruple, not linguistic evidence, and therefore fails to convey what the author of 2 Peter actually wrote.

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