Did you KNOW Ray and Cynthia or the legal copyright holder? Only a few maybe had limited contact. (page 4)

Ruby456

blonde thanks so much for sharing this info. This is really helpful particularly as Debroah Dystkra has made repeated appeals regarding the issue. Her appeals alter the ethics of downloading free pdf's. She is not the enemy - she is one of us.

Bonsai

I personally don't give a rat's tail how the copywrite owners make their money. There is no doubt in my mind that this book should be available on the internet freely so that as many people as possible can read it. It is the responsibility of those in control (the Dykstras?) to make it happen.

Many people who read the PDF will want to buy the book (as i did). It can only help the cause and it will help line their pockets with the money that made this whole thing an issue in the first place. We'll no doubt see their true intentions depending on what they do in the near future... If they provide an avenue for reading the book freely or through a donation arrangement then I can see that this isn't just another money grab.

Witness My Fury

And still it goes on and on and on...

Just publish the fucking pdf with a donate button on the commentary press website and stop poncing about.

But then, maybe if you'd all handled this better and kept the exjw community onside, your donations received from such a button would likely be way higher. I doubt many will be generous under the current circumstances as you will be seen (rightly) as not deserving.

I'm starting to think they dont want it available so that their stockpiles can dribble out for $$$s over the next few years.

notsurewheretogo

Kim & Mike...Cedars...CoC farce...I've had enough of the exjw community...half the people are still warped from their b0rg experience and can't think straight.

Even worse if my still-in family had doubts and went searching and found all this crap they would never leave as they would see this toxic exjw attitude...pathetic.

KateWild

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeRnVdr6NbQ

This is what is available on the internet today. Ebay says it's out of print

So what are genuinely doubting JWs going to do?

I read it on the internet in PDF form but I didn't download it or pass it on to anyone. I have a copy now because I think I can help people and That's all I want to do is expose the GB. I will gladly give the CPH £10 for this copy I have. I paid £10 for Steve Hassan's book CCMC and £8.99 for Ben Goldacre's Bad Science (an expose on how the media misinforms people about scientific statistics). I didn't choose to read pirate PDF copies. I bought what was in supply.

My point is there is a demand for COC and it's out of print. People will get it as there is still a supply. When I read it I didn't even realise I was reading a pirate copy it was what was supplied to me. Where there is a demand there will be a supply.

I can understand your point Simon that if no one ever read any pirate copies it would have never gone out of print. That is what I have just grasped from all these threads. So I am happy to pay the CPH for my electronic copy of the PDF.

Kate xx

DesirousOfChange

Does everyone share the same strong conviction over pirated copies of the "Shepherd the Flock" elders' book?

Not me. I'd gladly breach a copyright law to expose an organization responsible to thousands of premature deaths due to an insanely dishonest blood doctrine.

I'm sure many could use the same justification for pirating CoC as it is perhaps the greatest "behind the curtain" expose' of the WTS. As already mentioned, "the end justifies the means" can be "fitted" to most any argument. I think it may be what the protesters (aka looters) said in Ferguson.

PLEASE NOTE: I am NOT taking a moral position on this subject or condemning anyone's actions or opinions. (You know what they say about opinions.) Just playing "devil's advocate" because the smell of the hypocrisy is pretty rank. I am forever grateful to a member here who sent me a pdf copy of the 2010 Elders' Book and I don't give a ratsass about the WTS copyright. But I also have a pdf copy of CoC but do not have said animosity towards the Franz's, but it was not available in any media form for a fee (and I could never had risked having a "hard copy" at that time). I have purchased several copies of Hassan's CCMC to give as gifts after having purchased my own copy to read. CCMC was and is readily available for a reasonable fee.

It is unfortunate and do I somewhat regret that the current copyright holders of CoC lack the business savvy to make it available easily and immediately to fill the need that there is, and to do so in a manner that allows them to reasonably prosper from it. However, I would have much more regret if it were Ray & Cynthia that were losing the benefit of compensation. But, torrents are here to stay. Anything with any kind of demand in the public spectrum will be available there. Welcome to the 21st Century.

Doc

Marvin Shilmer

Marvin, it is common for people to use the end result (I.e., saving lives and/or helping them see TTATT) to justify how that result is achieved ( I.e., illegal copying and distributing practices).
Which ever way you spin it, you ARE using the end to justify the means. Some people will agree with your justifications, others won't, and still others will be ambivalent.
I personally am ambivalent. I see the need for people to have access to perhaps the single most powerful work of nonfiction on jw organization (what a unique vantage point Ray Franz had!) Yet, at the same time, I am so aware of Ray's own expressed concerns about the need to maintain authorial control over how his books were published and distributed.

Steve2,

My comments you respond to have nothing whatsoever to do with Ray's COC publication and you know that perfectly well. My comments you respond to are about my willingness to disregard copyright of an organization who, as we speak, is responsible for premature deaths of innocent children and unsuspecting adults. Apparently you take issue with this or you'd not ply the pejorative "ends justifies the means" as you have in my case. It is not the END (hopefully a lessening of deaths due to Watchtower doctrine) that justifies (compels!) my action it is the the CAUSE (deaths due to Watchtower doctrine) that justifies (compels) my action. There is no similar CAUSE in relation to Ray's COC work.

My position is not based on legality. My position is based on morality. Nonetheless, assuming statutory and common law is based on community best interests there is both moral and legal (common law) justification for breaching copyright based on an entity acting contrary to a community's best interest by way of the very material at issue under copyright. But, again, in this case I neither act nor count on the legality. I'm compelled morally. Perhaps our moral compasses are different. Mine says if the choice is save a life by breaching a copyright that is leading to those deaths or let someone die and honor that copyright then I'm going to breach a copyright every time it can save a life. Every single time, and no matter who the copyright holder is.

In the future if you opt to address my position on this point please do so in proper context!

Do you need more?

JeffT

Good grief, it's a book. Some of you sound like its a plot to take food away from babies. If you think they information is that vital, write your own book. You can cite CofC as a source. All the information is out there if you need it.

This debate about ignoring the law and the copy holder's rights will probably convince more JW's to stay in, than reading the book will convince to get out.

ILoveTTATT2

Let me know when it is available, in Spanish, in PDF form.

Bonsai

JeffT. Yes, it is just a book. Most people here don't like piracy. It shouldn't come down to piracy. The relevant issue is whether or not the copyright owners will do the right thing or not. If we keep applying pressure and asking for accountability then hopefully they will put away their gold fingers. Time will tell...

Either way, this book being pulled off the market, as it currently is, is a huge win for WTBTS. Coincidence?

Did you KNOW Ray and Cynthia or the legal copyright holder? Only a few maybe had limited contact.

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