Karl Marx Genius Of The Modern World

by Brokeback Watchtower 94 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  LoveUniHateExams

  Perhaps you can point me to an example of a Marxist country? I haven't seen one - really?! Not one?

  Look, capitalism has its faults. These need to be sorted out.

  And some capitalist governments do capitalism badly. A succession of British Prime Ministers has sailed the good ship Britannia into choppy waters.

  For the last twenty years or more, Britain has been living beyond its means. New Labour drove the country into the ground - when they were booted out of office in 2010, the deficit reached £1 trillion. David Cameron and Theresa May have been just as bad.

  But there are countries that do capitalism very well. Germany and South Korea are good examples of democratic, capitalist countries with strong economies. There might be more examples but, since I'm no expert on politics and economics, these escape me.

  There must be at least one government of a country - past or present - that is/was thriving under Marxism, surely ...
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  waton

  produce according to [maximum] of your ability, and take [minimum] according to your need? ... not want ?

  People have self interests, and Marxism, as it has been attempted, has failed, because you would have to produce first super devoted persons to make the above work and palatable. . Communist countries were nightmares trying that.
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  fulltimestudent

  Thnx Brokeback Watchtower, for posting the BBC Series discussing Marx's concepts. I somehow missed it, if it was ever re-broadcast on Aussie TV.

  In the 8 years I've spent studying Asian/Chinese history, I've not really focussed much attention on 'the dismal science,' (the semi-humourous term Thomas Carlyle applied to economics). maybe that was a mistake, but I figured that understanding human history from an asiancentric viewpoint would about occupy my remaining years. But the point I want to make is that most of the arguing back and forth on this thread, misses the points Carlyle picked up on, and that is:

  1. If economics is a 'science' in any way, then what we really need to do is to see how Marx would fit into the understanding of the way economic communities (economies) work. For me, it would be his insistence that all parties must have an adequate reward. If that does not happen, then the economic community has failed and there will be repercussions.

  2.If economics is a 'science' in any way, then we should view the discussion, not just as whether any particular view is right or wrong, but on the way that view advances our understanding of the whole picture. We shoulod think of the arguments in the light of the scientific method.

  
  

  Which brings up an interesting aspect. The 2008 economic crisis (capitalist in nature) that nearly brought many economic communities to the point of collapse, is thought to have been the fault of uncontrolled American capitalism. Was anyone punished for their role in that crisis? If not, why not? Does capitalism need some controls? If so, who should control capitalism and now?
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  fulltimestudent

  The question has also been raised, "Are there any successful examples of a Marxist country? Nope, I don't know of any countries either? But we can find communities that can be described as an example of a successful "socialist" community.

  For 400 years (appox. 200 BCE to 200 CE), the Essenes were a community in Judah. If you joined the community you were (according to Josephus) required to give your belongings (wealth) to the community and work for it (as assigned) in return for your daily needs. (it is argued, by some, that many Essenes were among the first followers of Jesus, and that is why at Pentecost, the Jews in the first Jesus community, 'had all things in common.'

  Later as being 'Christian' became more clearly defined many chose to become part of of a monastic group, operating on similar principles to the Essenes. These groups were popular in Catholic areas for centuries.

  Some scholarship argues that these monastic groups were modeled on Buddhist monastic communities, true or not true, Buddhist monasteries do operate in a similar way.

  Do we see them as 'socialist"? I guess its a matter of defining 'socialist' first.
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  fulltimestudent

  Do any successful examples of socialist communities still exist in China? Here's a YT video of Huaxi (pronounced wahshe) village in China's Jiangsu Province, which claims to be China's richest village. There's a number of reports/videos on Huaxi (some hypercritical). I selected these because they were apparently made by the Singapore Straits Times (with shares held by government approved ownership) and Singapore with a very successful economy is a mix of socialism and capitalism, and many think of Singapore as the model for China today.

  Anyway, see what you think of a successful 'socialist' village?

  Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHI8KzdpR8Q

  Part 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETNXB499y6M
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  MeanMrMustard

  People have self interests, and Marxism, as it has been attempted, has failed, because you would have to produce first super devoted persons to make the above work and palatable. . Communist countries were nightmares trying that.

  This is true.

  But it is actually even worse for the Marxist/Socialist. Even if you grant this condition and everyone is on board with the idea - completely and utterly on board, devoted completely to the group, working night and day for good of the collective, it doesn't matter. The economy can't calculate resource usage. Not even changing human nature will change the sheer mathematical wall confronting socialists.

  MMM
  
  
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  MeanMrMustard

  ...He was brilliant economist, and his ideas(not really read up on the man al that much) offer some sage advice IMO.

  He was a brilliant economist?

  1. If economics is a 'science' in any way, then what we really need to do is to see how Marx would fit into the understanding of the way economic communities (economies) work. For me, it would be his insistence that all parties must have an adequate reward. If that does not happen, then the economic community has failed and there will be repercussions.
  2.If economics is a 'science' in any way, then we should view the discussion, not just as whether any particular view is right or wrong, but on the way that view advances our understanding of the whole picture. We shoulod think of the arguments in the light of the scientific method.

  Economics is not a hard science. You can't predict human behavior, and you can't re-run experiments. Economics is praxeology.
  

  There once was a great auto mechanic. His name was Joe. He wanted to revolutionize the car. He thought, actually he *knew*, he could make it better. Just a fraction of the amazing features would be that the car would drive itself, use only 1% of the fuel, and the interior would be lush and comfortable with robot massage hands and champagne.

  To achieve this goal, he was willing to take radical, revolutionary steps. The cornerstone of these steps was to make the car completely out of dog shit.

  Joe is to Cars as Marx is to Economics. That is what we can learn.

  MMM

  
  
  
  
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  MeanMrMustard

  Anyway, see what you think of a successful 'socialist' village?

  It is not what you think. This village is basically a corporation using labor from the surrounding towns, paying them a wage, and producing products (like steel) to sell and realizing the profits because they can calculate their inputs and outputs due to prices. The workers coming in from surrounding towns are glad to work for these capitalists because it improves their standard of living. Nothing wrong with that...
  

  Even the Soviet Union lasted a while because they looked to surrounding capitalist economies for prices (they would order the Sears catalog for hints). Please, watch the video on page 2 of this thread. Socialist economies can't calculate.
  

  MMM
  
  
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  MeanMrMustard

  Good comments here:

  Which brings up an interesting aspect. The 2008 economic crisis (capitalist in nature) that nearly brought many economic communities to the point of collapse, is thought to have been the fault of uncontrolled American capitalism.

  What does the Federal Reserve price fixing interest rates for years, providing the liquid capital in the form of printed money, funneled into the housing market by government programs, and incentivizing banks to disregard sound loan underwriting practices by law, have anything to do with capitalism?

  MMM
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  waton

  Socialist economies can't calculate

  MMM: even if they could, human nature would stymie them. A commie factory was ordered to produce x number of footwear ( as calculated by Central Committee for need), promptly produced the most convenient to make, and at Kaganovitch pace and quality. not wanted, left the needy in need.