by FragrantAddendum 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
so according to bible
elisha's bones were there when jehovah resurrected some other dude
jesus could heal from a distance by power of god
and lazarus was dead 4 days before being brought back
what's up with wt denying the mt 27:51-54 thing? they don't have "holy spirit"
it says clearly the soldier's faith was due to seeing a bunch of people resurrected, just like lazarus was
right when jesus died
"if everything was recorded that jesus did, the scrolls of the whole earth couldn't contain it"
Can you please provide independently verified evidence that a miracle worker called jesus existed, the four gospels were written decades after the so called events by unknown authors so not eyewitness of the events ,and independently verified evidence that the events of mt 25:51-54 actually happened as even those who didn't believe in jesus would have witnessed those events and so you would think that someone would have recorded them.
ah so you subscribe to the wt "two witnesses" thing
where if you don't personally hear it from people who were there
it must not have
happened
(it's 27 not 25)
i feel like i've heard that before
somewhere
...anyway...
the point wasn't about the truth of the bible
it was about wt claiming to teach truth
and how they just make stuff up as they go
and aren't consistent
The phenomena being mentioned in Mt 27:53 corresponds to the Jewish apocalyptic writings and expectations of the day.
While the text is short and thus obscure, some of the Church Fathers believe that this passage describes the liberation of the just souls who, according to Second Temple theology, "waited in limbo at the entry of Sheol" but no further. In other words, it is telling the religious truth that the Patriarchs received their full reward at this point and perhaps some appeared before others and bore witness to Christ.
Even if none of them literally appeared, early exegetical writers seemed to agree that Matthew was saying that all the just of the Old Testament from that moment on entered with Jesus into their heavenly glory.
some jews were faithful
some jews were apostates
there is nothing new under the sun
the faithful jews, like mary and martha and lazarus, knew that the dead waited asleep in the grave
the patriachs are still asleep in the grave
no one ascended to heaven yet at that point, not even jesus
but some of the faithful jews who had recently died were resurrected when jesus died (although they did die again, just like lazarus did)
some of those faithful jews were later present at the pentecost meeting and became part of the 144,000 anointed ones
those faithful jews died and still await their resurrection
no one has been resurrected to heaven at this point except jesus
there are no witnesses to any other "spirit" type resurrection except his
The word "resurrection" does not refer to the Christian belief of going to heaven after death. Instead it refers to the bodily rising from the grave at the end of time.
As "The Apostles' Creed" states:
I believe in...the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.
From the original Latin:
Credo...in...carnis resurrectionem.
Which is literally: "physical" or "bodily resurrection."
As the Catechism of the Catholic Church explains:
By death the soul is separated from the body, but in the resurrection God will give incorruptible life to our body, transformed by reunion with our soul. Just as Christ is risen and lives for ever, so all of us will rise at the last day.--CCC 1016.
The Greek word "resurrection" does not mean to come back to life as a spirit person after death. The word means "to stand up, again," as in "physically."
While my writing this is not to say this reflects the religious beliefs of my Jewish community, Thayer's, Strong's, and others will agree with the creed and the CCC that it means a physical rising of the body, a reanimation of what has been put to death. This is why the Greeks laughed at Paul when he mentioned "resurrection" as recorded at Acts 17:32 because they believed in a spiritual afterlife, not a physical one.
The author of Matthew was referring to the resurrection. The Church Fathers wrote that this event did not occur on a grand scale. Therefore this verse, the Church Fathers wrote, must be speaking of enjoying the Beatific Vision.
i'm not arguing with you, @kaleb, i agree on the standing again thing in the flesh
the resurrections that elijah and elisha did were not some kind of "spirit thing" they were of flesh and blood people
that's why when jesus came back it was something different that hadn't been done before and hasn't been done since
no one had ever been resurrected as a spirit creature
and no one else has since
jesus materialized a body in order to show he'd been resurrected
none of the other "saints" have done that because none of them have been resurrected
the wt teaching that the 144,000 are already resurrected since 1914 or 1918 or whatever they're teaching these days is false
the mt 27 thing where it says the bodies came out of the graves and were seen was a flesh and blood resurrection like the ones elijah and elisha did - they weren't "spirits" who appeared like ghosts or something
The redactor that changed Mark in this passage,(into what is called Matt) is probably expressing his conviction that the return of Jesus was imminent. Like Kaleb said there were expectations that the 'saints' would be resurrected at the end of the age. The earthquake might well have been similarly figured in this way. The later redactor resposible for what is now called Luke, didn't included it, perhaps too many years had passed and he had different expectations. These were word plays, not historical documents. The freeness the redactors felt to make such changes ought to impress that on us.
I feel we need to consider the wide diversity of Jewish views of death and immortality. Volumes have been written on it but for now consider Josephus' review of dominant opinions.:
3. Now, for the Pharisees, .....They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; ....
4. But the doctrine of the Sadducees is this: That souls die with the bodies;............
5. The doctrine of the Essens is this: .... They teach the immortality of souls..........
Paul, at least what we have to go on, seems to have vacillated between a future resurrection to a spirit 'body' or an immediate one. Perhaps the immediate concept was rooted in the idea that the judgment was near. It seems a hybrid of ideas, his arguments are confusing to say the least, and may have been the result of a Greek dismissal of the idea of physical resurrection.
that the jews believed in two kinds of resurrections is clear from the scriptures
matthew was jewish
mark was jewish
paul was jewish
luke, peter, james, john, jude...all jewish
