Hey, Regarding the "Resurrection" thing and the WT denial of the Mt 27:51-53 incident... (page 2)

KalebOutWest

FA writes:

the mt 27 thing where it says the bodies came out of the graves and were seen was a flesh and blood resurrection like the ones elijah and elisha did - they weren't "spirits" who appeared like ghosts or something--Italics added.

That is incorrect.

The text does not use the word "resurrection."

Matthew 27:52 reads:

καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν

And many bodies of the sleeping saints rose

The word "resurrection" does not occur.

About these "saints" verse 53 says they "appeared to many" but does not say they were 'seen as flesh and blood' as you claim.

Various account in the Fathers, on the basis of these verses, I repeat, the Church Fathers themselves who you owe the very preservation and canonization of the New Testament to, claim that these 'appearences' were likely "apparitions" if they did occur at all.

Nowhere in the Biblical text, and nowhere in the Fathers do we read of a resurrection of these "saints" being "flesh and blood" and that these were seen as you state.

FragrantAddendum

KalebOutWest: "The Greek word "resurrection" does not mean to come back to life as a spirit person after death. The word means "to stand up, again," as in "physically.""

KalebOutWest: "The text does not use the word "resurrection."
Matthew 27:52 reads:
καὶ πολλὰ σώματα τῶν κεκοιμημένων ἁγίων ἠγέρθησαν
And many bodies of the sleeping saints rose
The word "resurrection" does not occur."

The word "saints" was not used in the original.

while some english translations there read "saints" the pentecost pouring out of holy spirit hadn't happened yet

none of the jews were anointed yet so they weren't "saints"

jesus hadn't ascended to heaven yet

the jews who were resurrected as referred to in mt 27:52 are called ἁγίων

ἁγίων is better translated "holy ones"

FragrantAddendum

anyway, many jews wrote about the flesh-and-blood resurrections of old performed by elijah and elisha

so when god resurrected some dead people back to human life at jesus' death

it wasn't like it had never happened before

when elisha was asleep in death god did a resurrection in association with elisha's remains

jesus had healed people from a distance before

so god choosing to resurrect a bunch of dead faithful jews in association with the death of jesus for a sign

and when the army officer and those with him saw it

they declared, regarding christ "truly this is god's son"

KalebOutWest

FragrantAddendum:

Διαβάζω ελληνικά πάνω από 30 χρόνια. Έχω γνωρίσει ανθρώπους σαν εσένα. Νομίζεις ότι είσαι έξυπνος. Αλλά έχεις κολλήσει σε ψεύτικες σκέψεις. Μάλλον χρειάζεστε υπολογιστή για να το μεταφράσετε.

FragrantAddendum

that's nice

Various account in the Fathers, on the basis of these verses, I repeat, the Church Fathers themselves who you owe the very preservation and canonization of the New Testament to, claim that these 'appearences' were likely "apparitions" if they did occur at all.

i don't have any connection to those apostate "church fathers"

to me they're just another version of the gb

they made a bunch of stuff up and it wasn't in harmony with the ancient jewish writings

Nowhere in the Biblical text, and nowhere in the Fathers do we read of a resurrection of these "saints" being "flesh and blood" and that these were seen as you state.

FragrantAddendum

Nowhere in the Biblical text, and nowhere in the Fathers do we read of a resurrection of these "saints" being "flesh and blood" and that these were seen as you state.

they weren't "saints" as in "anointed" but they were holy ones, faithful jews

it's right there

enoughisenough

I think this is a JW reasoning on that scripture but I tend to think it correct. The earth quaked. The tombs opens. Bodie became apparent. There is nothing I read in the verses that suggest these bodies were raised from the dead, but rather, the dead bodies appeared having been thrown out of the graves. If those bodies had been made aive, isn't it likely more details on the subject would have been provided. Why were they afraid? If dead ones were coming back to life, wouldn't someone have written about how the people were rejoiceing?

FragrantAddendum

in the greek it says

the time was around the time of the sabbath

so people weren't hanging out by graves

the women waited until the sabbath was over to attempt to add spices to the body of christ

but the army officer saw what happened

that's why he and the guys with him were afraid

it was fear of god

they realized this event was a miracle

just like when peter had fear of god (a good kind of fear - more like amazement) when the big catch of fish thing happened

the army officer said "truly this was god's son"

not just because of an earthquake or sun going dark

but because of the people who were raised from the dead

in john's gospel he said there were lots of things that never got written down

because jesus did so many many miracles

Vanderhoven7

@ PeacefulPete

Can you provide where this Josephus quote is found?

3. Now, for the Pharisees, .....They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; ....
4. But the doctrine of the Sadducees is this: That souls die with the bodies;............
5. The doctrine of the Essens is this: .... They teach the immortality of souls..........

peacefulpete

ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-18.htm

Hey, Regarding the "Resurrection" thing and the WT denial of the Mt 27:51-53 incident...

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