Watchtower Used to Teach Jesus Was Not an Angel and was  "the Lord from Heaven" Who Died on a Cross!

by Sea Breeze 25 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Slimboyfat

    Thank you for even acknowledging that early 1st and 2nd century church Leaders quoted 1 Timothy 3: 16 as "God" and not "He".

    It creates an unmimaginable situation where if the verse was supposedly written as "He" all along until the 4th century until someone changed it, that you you would have so many church leaders quote that verse as "God" centuries earlier. If fact, it just provides more evidence of the unrelialability of the Alexdrian texts which account for less than 10% of all manuscripts. The same could be said for most of the "disputed" verses Unitarians try to use against Christians.

    it could be compatible with JW theology because Jesus was the one who revealed the invisible God because he is the exact representation of his Father.

    But that's not what it says is it? It could mean just what is says: God was manifest in the flesh.

    Would you mind answering my questions as to whether or not you would allow the Spirit of Christ to inhabit you? If Christ is anything other than God, like an angel for instance wouldn't that be about the same as demon posession?

    "If any man have not the spirit of Christ, he is none of his". - Romans 8: 9

    Don't you want to belong to Christ?

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Thank you for even acknowledging that early 1st and 2nd century church Leaders quoted 1 Timothy 3: 16 as "God" and not "He".

    I didn’t say that. I said:

    I agree that quotations from early church fathers is one of the strands of witnesses that can be useful for recovering the early text.

    The situation seems to be the opposite of what you stated above. Metzger notes that early church Fathers read “who was manifest in the flesh” in 1 Tim 3:16 and “God manifest in the flesh” is not attested by any writer until the last third of the 4th century. (See pages from his textual commentary attached) Where did you get your information?



  • Duran
    Duran
    It could mean just what is says: God was manifest in the flesh.

    It shows here the it was the 'son of God' who was manifest is the flesh.

    [ 8 The one who practices sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was made manifest, to break up the works of the Devil.]

    [14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth.]

    'God' there is referring to Jehovah. 'Son' there is referring to Jesus. Jesus (the word) is the one who was made manifest in the flesh.

    Even if 1 Timothy 3:16 said "god' and not 'he', that would not mean that 'god' there is referring to Jehovah God. 1 John 3:8 and John 1:14 makes clear that it is Jesus (the word) the 'son of God' is who was made manifest in the flesh.

    The reason it could have said 'god' even though referring to Jesus is because Jesus is also said to be a 'god'. Again though, that does not make him Jehovah God, just like Satan is said to be a 'god' and yet you do not claim he is Jehovah God.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @Slimboyfat

    I'm not a fan of Metzer:

    Metzger was a radical ecumenist. He was at the forefront of producing “the Ecumenical Edition” of the RSV in 1973 and personally presented a copy to Pope Paul VI. “In a private audience granted to a small group, comprising the Greek Orthodox Archbishop Athenagoras, Lady Priscilla and Sir William Collins, Herbert G. May, and the present writer, Pope Paul accepted the RSV ‘Common’ Bible as a significant step in furthering ecumenical relations among the churches” (Metzger, “The RSV-Ecumenical Edition,” Theology Today, October 1977). Metzger also presented a Bible to Pope John Paul II.

    Metzger was rationalistic in his approach to the Bible’s text. He did not believe in the divine preservation of the Scripture in any practical sense. In fact, he claimed that it is possible that we do not have sufficient manuscript evidence to recover the original text, because the manuscripts that exist might not even represent the text of the early churches. “... the disquieting possibility remains that the evidence available to us today may, in certain cases, be totally unrepresentative of the distribution of readings in the early church” (Metzger, Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament Presented to Matthew Black, 1979, p. 188).

    Metzger blatantly denied the infallible inspiration of the Bible.
    Metzger brazenly claimed that some portions of the original Scriptures might have been unfinished or lost before any copies could be made. Of the original ending of Mark 16 he says, “Whether he [Mark] was interrupted while writing and subsequently prevented (perhaps by death) from finishing his literary work, or whether the last leaf of the original copy was accidentally lost before other copies had been made, we do not know” (The Text of the New Testament, p. 228).

    Metzger advocated that Matthew incorporated errors in his royal genealogy of Christ (Metzger,
    A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 1975, p. 1; cited from Thomas Strouse, “The Pauline Antidote for Christians Caught in Theological Heresy: An Examination and Application of 2 Timothy 2:24-26,” Emmanuel Baptist Theological Seminary, Newington, CT, 2001).

    Metzger’s theological liberalism in regard to inspiration was expressed in the
    Reader’s Digest Condensed Bible. He was the chairman of the project and wrote the introductions to each book, in which he questioned the authorship, traditional date, and supernatural inspiration of books penned by Moses, Daniel, Paul, James, and Peter.

    So, do you accept these early church fathers' statements below about Jesus being God?

    https://www.berenddeboer.net/article/1_timothy_3_16.html#greek

    My larger point is the one you keep dodging. The one about Jesus' spirit inhabiting a person like scripture says is necessary. How does a Unitarian invite a created being (angel) into his heart? How would that be different than spiritism?

    What if that spirit decided to be malevolent at some point? See the problem I'm getting at? How does a Unitarian get around the fact that scripture plainly states that if a Christian does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his"?

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8: 9

    The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably here. Does it concern you that Gods Word says you are not a Christian if you don’t allow the Spirit of Christ to reside in you?

    None of us want to ever hear these terrifying words from the Lord: ”I never knew you” - Jesus

    The tripartite nature of man made in the image of a tri-partite God taught in the bible eliminates this problem that a Unitarian must deal with.


  • Duran
    Duran
    The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is used interchangeably here. Does it concern you that Gods Word says you are not a Christian if you don’t allow the Spirit of Christ to reside in you?
    [42 Look! My servant, whom I support! My chosen one, whom I have approved! I have put my spirit in him; He will bring justice to the nations.]

    [61 The spirit of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah is upon me, Because Jehovah anointed me to declare good news to the meek. He sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And the wide opening of the eyes to the prisoners,]

    [37 You know the subject that was talked about throughout all Ju·deʹa, starting from Galʹi·lee after the baptism that John preached: 38 about Jesus who was from Nazʹa·reth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil, because God was with him.]

    [16 After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him.]

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    Not sure of your point Duran.

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