Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  KalebOutWest

  FrangrantAddendum:

  we know this messenger is jesus because he looks so much like his father....

  I am sorry, but what type of Fresh-out-of-the-Watchtower-culty reasoning is this?

  We know because "he looks so much like his father"?

  What?

  Since when do we know what God looks like?

  I guess John 1:18 can be thrown out.

  Maybe FA is thinking of John 14:9 ('if you've seen me...'), but then we might as well be going down the road of Mormonism, being 'made in the image of God' (Ge 1:27) as that being literal and meaning God has genitals and has sex with a spirit Goddess and gives birth to spirit children through her spirit sex organs like earthly women, right? Pass the Golden Plates, I need something to put my dinner on.

  I might as well read the August 2024 Watchtower and believe that it is inspired of God than believe FA's reasoning.
  
  
• 

  FragrantAddendum

  Could you provide a source for your claim that the catholic church hid fragments? (a reliable one)
  

  https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/codex/history.aspx
  
• 

  FragrantAddendum

  Since when do we know what God looks like?"

  i didn't say that you knew
• 

  Blotty

  FragrantAddendum
  

  Thank you - good to know there are more than 4 people on here who can provide an actual reliable source (no, this is not passive aggressive towards you Fragrant)
• 

  aqwsed12345

  Refutation of Arian Objections Based on Revelation 3:14

  Jehovah's Witnesses often cite Revelation 3:14 to support their view that Jesus is a created being. The verse states, "These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation." They interpret "the beginning of God's creation" (Greek: arche tes ktiseos tou Theou) to mean that Jesus is the first being created by God. This interpretation, however, is flawed when considering the broader biblical context and the nuanced meanings of the Greek terms used.

  Contextual Analysis

  1. Revelation 3:15 and Omniscience: Immediately after Revelation 3:14, Jesus states, "I know thy works." This suggests omniscience, a divine attribute, supporting His deity.
  2. Jesus as Judge: Revelation 2:23 shows Jesus searching hearts and rewarding deeds, roles attributed to Jehovah alone in several Old Testament scriptures.
  3. Loving Chastener: Revelation 3:19 refers to Jesus as one who rebukes and chastens those He loves, similar to descriptions of God in Deuteronomy, Psalms, and Proverbs.
  4. Omnipresence: Revelation 3:20 implies Jesus' ability to be present with all who seek Him, requiring omnipresence, another divine attribute.

  Analysis of "Arche"

  The term "arche" in Greek can mean "beginning," but it can also mean "origin," "source," or "ruler." In the context of Revelation 3:14, "arche" is best understood as "the origin" or "the source" of creation. This aligns with the portrayal of Jesus throughout the New Testament as the agent through whom God created all things. For instance, John 1:3 states, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." This clearly positions Jesus not as a part of creation, but as its source.

  Supporting Biblical Texts

  To further clarify, Colossians 1:16-17 says, "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." These verses emphasize Jesus' preexistence and role as the Creator, not a created being. Hebrews 1:2-3 similarly describes Jesus as the one "through whom also he made the universe" and as "the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being."

  Early Church Understanding

  The early church fathers consistently affirmed the eternal divinity of Christ. For example, Athanasius argued against the Arian interpretation by emphasizing that Jesus, as the Logos, is eternal and uncreated. He pointed out that if Jesus were a created being, He could not be the source of all creation.

  Addressing the Jehovah's Witness Translation

  The New World Translation (NWT) used by Jehovah's Witnesses adds the word "other" in Colossians 1:16 to suggest that Jesus is part of creation: "By means of him all [other] things were created." This insertion is not present in the Greek text and alters the meaning to fit their theological agenda. Such an addition lacks textual support and violates principles of accurate translation.

  Theological Implications

  The interpretation of Jesus as a created being undermines the doctrine of the Trinity and the full divinity of Christ. It conflicts with numerous scriptural affirmations of Jesus' deity and His role as Creator. The proper understanding of Revelation 3:14 within its biblical context reinforces the orthodox Christian belief in Jesus' eternal and uncreated nature.

  Revelation 3:14, when correctly interpreted, does not support the Arian view that Jesus is a created being. Instead, it affirms His position as the source and ruler of all creation. The broader scriptural context and the original Greek terminology reveal that Jesus is eternally divine, coexistent with the Father, and the agent through whom all things were made. This understanding is crucial for maintaining the integrity of Christian doctrine and refuting Arian objections.

  The document "Arian Objections To The Trinity Refuted" is a detailed refutation of the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14, which describes Jesus Christ as "the beginning of the creation of God." The Arian view suggests that this phrase means Christ was the first created being, thus denying His divinity and supporting Unitarianism. The author systematically deconstructs this argument using scriptural context, Greek lexicon definitions, and early Christian literature.

  The author begins by explaining the Arian position, which asserts that Jesus was a created spirit being, similar to angels, and that He did not exist before His creation. They interpret "beginning" as "one begun," equating it with "the first creature created by God." However, the author argues that this interpretation neglects the broader context of Revelation 3:14 and other scriptural references that affirm Christ's divinity.

  To counter the Arian argument, the author examines the context in which Revelation 3:14 is situated. He notes that the surrounding verses affirm Christ's deity. For instance, in Revelation 3:15, Jesus claims omniscience by stating He knows all the works of the Laodicean church, a trait attributed only to God. Moreover, in Revelation 2:23, Christ declares that He searches the hearts and minds, a function ascribed to Jehovah alone in the Old Testament. This context suggests that Christ's declaration of being the "beginning" should be understood in a way that affirms His divinity, not denies it.

  The author further explores the lexical meaning of the Greek word "arche," translated as "beginning" in Revelation 3:14. He cites several authoritative Greek lexicons that define "arche" as "origin" or "source," rather than "one begun." For example, the Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains defines "arche" as the initial cause or the origin, supporting the interpretation that Christ is the source of creation, not a part of it.

  Additionally, the author examines other instances of "arche" in the Book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:8, Christ declares, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending," which positions Him as the eternal, self-existent God. Similarly, in Revelation 21:6 and 22:13, "arche" is used to describe the eternal nature of God, reinforcing the interpretation that Christ is the originator of creation.

  The document also draws parallels between Revelation 3:14 and Colossians 1:15-18, where Christ is described as the "firstborn of all creation" and the "beginning." The author argues that "firstborn" (prototokos) in this context signifies preeminence and authority, not a literal first creature. This interpretation aligns with the depiction of Christ as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe in Colossians 1:16-17.

  Furthermore, the author addresses the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) and early Christian writings to support his argument. In these texts, "arche" frequently denotes "source" or "origin," as in Wisdom 14:27, where idolatry is called the "beginning, cause, and end of all evil." The early Christian literature similarly uses "arche" to refer to Christ as the eternal one, reinforcing the Trinitarian interpretation.

  The author concludes by asserting that the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14 is flawed due to its failure to consider the broader scriptural and lexical context. He emphasizes that the doctrine of the Trinity is firmly supported by numerous biblical passages and that recognizing the triune nature of God is essential for understanding the Christian faith. The document meticulously argues that any attempt to undermine the Trinity, such as the Arian objections, fails when subjected to rigorous theological and exegetical scrutiny.

  Greek Old Testament and Early Christian Literature

  The author explores the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint) and early Christian writings to further support his argument. In these texts, "arche" often means "source" or "origin." For example, Wisdom 14:27 describes idolatry as the "beginning, cause, and end of all evil," using "arche" to signify the source of evil. Similarly, Sirach 37:16 and Psalm 110:10 (LXX) use "arche" to denote the beginning or origin.

  Early Christian writers also use "arche" to affirm Christ's divinity. Ignatius, in his letter to the Smyrnaeans, refers to divisions as the "beginning of evils," and Polycarp, in his letter to the Philippians, describes the love of money as the "beginning of all troubles." These uses illustrate that "arche" can denote origin or source rather than something created.

  Conclusion

  The author concludes that the Arian interpretation of Revelation 3:14 is flawed. The broader scriptural context, the lexical meaning of "arche," and historical Christian literature all affirm that Jesus is the originator of creation, not a created being. This interpretation aligns with the doctrine of the Trinity, which asserts that Jesus is fully divine and co-eternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  The document systematically dismantles the Arian arguments by demonstrating that their interpretation of Revelation 3:14 ignores crucial contextual and linguistic evidence. The author asserts that recognizing the triune nature of God is essential for understanding Christian theology and salvation.

  Footnotes

  Throughout the document, the author includes numerous footnotes that reference specific Bible verses, Greek lexicons, and scholarly works. These footnotes provide additional evidence and support for his arguments, ensuring that his refutation of the Arian interpretation is thorough and well-documented.
• 

  FragrantAddendum

  <Kaleb said>: I am Jewish.

  
  

  FragrantAddendum:

  we know this messenger is jesus because he looks so much like his father....

  <Kaleb said>: I am sorry, but what type of Fresh-out-of-the-Watchtower-culty reasoning is this?

  We know because "he looks so much like his father"?

  What?

  Since when do we know what God looks like?

  a faithful jewish man wrote the words of ezekiel chapter 1 verses 26-28

  perhaps you are familiar with how they read in hebrew

  here is one translation of those words into english...

  
  

  Since when do we know what God looks like?

  I guess John 1:18 can be thrown out.

  john's words are true

  he was speaking figuratively, as he often did about beautiful concepts

  "god is love"

  "jesus, the light of the world"

  and so on

  no man has seen god's full heavenly glory at any time

  jesus had seen god's heavenly glory before being human

  so he could explain

  but that many humans have seen jehovah in a materialized body

  is detailed throughout the bible

  moses talked with god face-to-face

  moses, while talking to god face-to-face asked to see god's full heavenly glory

  but god said it wouldn't work, it'd be too much for a human to handle

  that's why god always materialized a body when visiting adam and eve in the garden

  also it's why god materialized a body to visit abram that time

  "all things are possible with god"

  you do remember what his name means, right?

  https://youtu.be/kJPRw7CnNaw
• 

  Blotty

  aqwsed12345

  No one is paying attention to you for one simple reason: a quick look in ANY dictionary proves you incorrect...
  

  none of the verses you cite mean what you claim, arkhe indicates a "commencement" not "authorship" - hence no reputable dictionary cites a verse for such a meaning.

  lets have an actual discussion about the verse instead of ramming a theological agenda down others throats, shall we?
  
  and blatantly showing your hatred for a certain group with unfounded claims...
• 

  Blotty

  ἀρχή, ῆς, ἡ (Hom.+) 1. the commencement of someth. as an action, process, or state of being, beginning, i.e. a point of time at the beginning of a duration. a. gener. (opp. τέλος; cp. Diod. S. 16, 1, 1 ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς μέχρι τοῦ τέλους; Ael. Aristid. 30, 24 K.=10 p. 123 D.: ἐξ ἀ. εἰς τέλος; Appian, Bell. Civ. 5, 9, §36; Wsd 7:18) B 1:6; IEph 14:1; IMg 13:1; IRo 1:2, cp. vs. 1. W. gen. foll. (OGI 458, 10 life) ἡμέρας ὀγδόης B 15:8; ἡμερῶν (2 Km 14:26) Hb 7:3; τῶν σημείων first of the signs J 2:11 (ἀ. τοῦ ἡμετέρου δόγματος Orig., C. Cels. 2, 4, 20; cp. Isocr., Paneg. 10:38 Blass ἀλλ᾿ ἀρχὴν μὲν ταύτην ἐποιήσατο τ. εὐεργεσιῶν, τροφὴν τοῖς δεομένοις εὑρεῖν=but [Athens] made this the starting point of her benefactions: to provide basic needs for livelihood; Pr 8:22; Jos., Ant. 8, 229 ἀ. κακῶν); ὠδίνων Mt 24:8; Mk 13:8; κακῶν ISm 7:2. As the beginning, i.e. initial account, in a book (Ion of Chios [V BC] 392 fgm. 24 Jac. [=Leurini no. 114] ἀρχὴ τοῦ λόγου; Polystrat. p. 28; Diod. S. 17, 1, 1 ἡ βύβλος τὴν ἀ. ἔσχε ἀπὸ . . .; Ael. Aristid. 23, 2 K.=42 p. 768 D.: ἐπ᾿ ἀρχῇ τοῦ συγγράμματος; Diog. L. 3, 37 ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς Πολιτείας; cp. Sb 7696, 53; 58 [250 AD]) ἀ. τοῦ εὐαγγελίου Ἰ. Χ. Beginning of the gospel of J. C. Mk 1:1 (cp. Hos 1:2 ἀ. λόγου κυρίου πρὸς Ὡσηέ; s. RHarris, Exp. 8th ser., 1919, 113–19; 1920, 142–50; 334–50; FDaubanton, NThSt 2, 1919, 168–70; AvanVeldhuizen, ibid., 171–75; EEidem, Ingressen til Mkevangeliet: FBuhl Festschr. 1925, 35–49; NFreese, StKr 104, ’32, 429–38; AWikgren, JBL 61, ’42, 11–20 [ἀρχή=summary]; LKeck, NTS 12, ’65/66, 352–70). ἀ. τῆς ὑποστάσεως original commitment Hb 3:14. ἀρχὴν ἔχειν w. {p. 138} gen. of the inf. begin to be someth. IEph 3:1. ἀρχὴν λαμβάνειν begin (Polyb.; Aelian, VH 2, 28; 12, 53; Diog. L., Prooem. 3, 4; Sext. Emp., Phys. 1, 366; Philo, Mos. 1, 81) λαλεῖσθαι to be proclaimed at first Hb 2:3; cp. IEph 19:3.—W. prep. ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς from the beginning (Paus. 3, 18, 2; SIG 741, 20; UPZ 160, 15 [119 BC]; BGU 1141, 44; JosAs 23:4; Jos., Ant. 8, 350; 9, 30) J 6:64 v.l.; 15:27; 1J 2:7, 24; 3:11; 2J 5f; Ac 26:4; MPol 17:1; Hs 9, 11, 9; Dg 12:3. οἱ ἀπ᾿ ἀ. αὐτόπται those who fr. the beginning were eyewitnesses Lk 1:2. Also ἐξ ἀρχῆς (Diod. Sic. 18, 41, 7; Appian, Bell. Civ. 5, 45 [189]; SIG 547 9; 634, 4; UPZ 185 II 5; PGen 7, 8; BGU 1118, 21; Jos., Bell. 7, 358) J 6:64; 16:4; 1 Cl 19:2; Pol 7:2; Dg 2:1. πάλιν ἐξ ἀ. (Ael. Aristid. 21, 10 K.=22 p. 443 D.; SIG 972, 174) again fr. the beginning (=afresh, anew; a common expr., Renehan ’75, 42) B 16:8. ἐν ἀρχῇ (Diod. S. 19, 110, 5; Palaeph. p. 2, 3; OGI 56, 57; PPetr II, 37, 2b verso, 4; PTebt 762, 9; POxy 1151, 15; BGU 954, 26; ViHab 14 [p. 87, 4 Sch.]) at the beginning, at first Ac 11:15; AcPlCor 2:4. ἐν ἀ. τοῦ εὐαγγελίου when the gospel was first preached Phil 4:15; sim., word for word, w. ref. to beg. of 1 Cor: 1 Cl 47:2.—τὴν ἀ. J 8:25, as nearly all the Gk. fathers understood it, is emphatically used adverbially=ὅλως at all (Plut., Mor. 115b; Dio Chrys. 10 [11], 12; 14 [31], 5; 133; Lucian, Eunuch. 6 al.; Ps.-Lucian, Salt. 3; POxy 472, 17 [c. 130 AD]; Philo, Spec. Leg. 3, 121; Jos., Ant. 1, 100; 15, 235 al.; as a rule in neg. clauses, but the negation can inhere in the sense: 48th letter of Apollonius of Tyana [Philostrat. I 356, 17]; Philo, Abrah. 116, Decal. 89; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 6, 11; without art. ApcSed 10:3; cp. Hs 2:5 cj. by W., endorsed by Joly; s. Field, Notes, 93f) τὴν ἀ. ὅτι καὶ λαλῶ ὑμῖν (how is it) that I even speak to you at all? But s. B-D-F §300, 2. More prob. the mng. is somewhat as follows: What I said to you from the first (so NT in Basic English; sim. REB et al.; cp. τὴν ἀρχήν ‘at the beginning’ Thu 2, 74, 2; s. also RFunk, HTR 51, ’58, 95–100; B-D-F §300, 2, but appeal to P is specious, s. EMiller, TZ 36, ’80, 261). b. beginning, origin in the abs. sense (ἀ. τῆς τῶν πάντων ὑποστάσεως Orig. C. Cels. 6, 65, 4) ἀ. πάντων χαλεπῶν Pol 4:1; ἀ. κακῶν ISm 7:2 (cp. 1 Ti 6:10, which has ῥίζα for ἀ., and s. e.g. Ps 110:10; Sir 10:13); ἀ. κόσμου B 15:8; ἀ. πάντων PtK 2, p. 13, 21. ἀπ᾿ ἀρχῆς fr. the very beginning (Is 43:13; Wsd 9:8; 12:11; Sir 24:9 al.; PsSol 8:31; GrBar 17:2) Mt 19:4, 8; J 8:44; 1J 1:1 (of the hist. beg. of Christianity: HWendt, D. Johannesbriefe u. d. joh. Christent. 1925, 31f; HWindisch, Hdb. ad loc.; difft. HConzelmann, RBultmann Festschr., ’54, 194–201); 3:8; 2 Th 2:13; ὁ ἀπ᾿ ἀ. 1J 2:13f; Dg 11:4; οἱ ἀπ᾿ ἀ. those at the very beginning, the first people 12:3; τὰ ἀπ᾿ ἀ. γενόμενα 1 C1 31:1; ἀπ᾿ ἀ. κτίσεως Mk 10:6; 13:19; 2 Pt 3:4 (on ἀ. κτίσεως cp. En 15:9); ἀπ᾿ ἀ. κόσμου Mt 24:21. Also ἐξ ἀ. (X., Mem. 1, 4, 5; Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D. [of the existence of Zeus]; TestAbr A 15 p. 96, 11 [Stone p. 40]; B 4 p. 109, 7 [St. p. 66]; Ath., R. 16, p. 67, 18; Philo, Aet. M. 42, Spec. Leg. 1 300; Did., Gen. 50, 1) Dg 8:11; ἐν ἀ. in the beginning (Simplicius in Epict. p. 104, 2; Did., Gen. 29, 25 al.) J 1:1f; ἐν ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως B 15:3. κατ᾿ ἀρχάς in the beg. Hb 1:10 (Ps 101:26; cp. Hdt. 3, 153 et al.; Diod. S.; Plut.; Philo, Leg. All. 3, 92, Det. Pot. Insid. 118; Ps 118:152; Just., D. 2, 3).

  2. one with whom a process begins, beginning fig., of pers. (Gen 49:3 Ῥουβὴν σὺ ἀρχὴ τέκνων μου; Dt 21:17): of Christ Col 1:18. W. τέλος of God or Christ Rv 1:8 v.l.; 21:6; 22:13 (Hymn to Selene 35 ἀ. καὶ τέλος εἶ: Orphica p. 294, likew. PGM 4, 2836; 13, 362; 687; Philo, Plant Jos., Ant. 8, 280; others in Rtzst., Poim. 270ff and cp. SIG 1125, 7–11 Αἰών, . . . ἀρχὴν μεσότητα τέλος οὐκ ἔχων, expressed from the perspective of historical beginning).

  3. the first cause, the beginning (philos. t.t. ODittrich, D. Systeme d. Moral I 1923, 360a, 369a;—Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D.: ἀρχὴ ἁπάντων Ζεύς τε καὶ ἐκ Διὸς πάντα; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 190 God as ἀρχὴ κ. μέσα κ. τέλος τῶν πάντων [contrast SIG 1125, 10f]) of Christ ἡ ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως Rv 3:14; but the mng. beginning=‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the Ἀρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160–77). [ὁ γὰ]ρ πρ (=πατὴρ) [ἀρ]|χή ἐ[σ]τ̣[ιν τῶν μ]ελλόν|των for the Father is the source of all who are to come into being in contrast to the προπάτωρ, who is without a beginning Ox 1081, 38f (SJCh 91, 1 ἀρχή; on the context, s. WTill, TU 60/5, ’55 p. 57).

  
  
• 

  aqwsed12345

  @Blotty

  I don't have any kind of "hatred" towards anyone or any point of view: arguing, polemicizing against a point of view does not come from emotion ("hate") but from intellectual conviction.
  

  The "beginning" of something, just as in Proverbs 9:10, Psalm 110:10, Sirach 37:16, Wisdom 14:27. The "beginning" of the creation is not that with which creation began, but that by which creation began and took place, so the theological content of this expression is exactly the same as Colossians 1:16, or John 1:3.

  Anyway, you should read this through:

  Arian Objections To The Trinity Refuted

  The assertion that "arkhē" solely indicates "commencement" and not "authorship" requires a broader consideration of the word's use in various contexts, particularly in philosophical and theological discussions. While dictionaries are valuable tools for understanding words, they often summarize meanings and do not capture the full spectrum of use in different contexts, especially in scriptural texts where nuanced interpretations are common.

  1. Broad Semantic Range: The Greek term "ἀρχή" (arkhē) indeed means "beginning," but its usage is not restricted to indicating a mere commencement in time. In philosophical discourse, as noted in the source you mentioned, "arkhē" can denote the "first cause" or "principle." This is particularly relevant in theological contexts where "first cause" doesn't imply being created but being preeminent and the originating source. For instance, Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher, uses "arkhē" to describe the Logos (Word) as the intermediary divine being through whom the cosmos was created. Philo, a contemporary of Paul and Jesus in the 1st century A.D., uses "ἀρχὴ" in a similar sense to denote the source or origin of creation: he refers to God as the "beginning of creation" (ἀρχὴ γενέσεως), emphasizing that God is the origin and source of all creation, not part of it. This usage supports the understanding of "ἀρχὴ" as originator.
     The dictionary citation you provided acknowledges that "arkhe" can indeed mean "first cause" or "origin," supporting the interpretation that Christ is the source of creation. Here is the relevant portion:
     "the first cause, the beginning (philos. t.t. ODittrich, D. Systeme d. Moral I 1923, 360a, 369a;—Ael. Aristid. 43, 9 K.=1 p. 3 D.: ἀρχὴ ἁπάντων Ζεύς τε καὶ ἐκ Διὸς πάντα; Jos., C. Ap. 2, 190 God as ἀρχὴ κ. μέσα κ. τέλος τῶν πάντων [contrast SIG 1125, 10f]) of Christ ἡ ἀ. τῆς κτίσεως Rv 3:14."
     This indicates that even within philosophical and theological contexts, "arkhe" can signify "first cause," aligning with the interpretation of Christ as the origin of all creation.
  2. Dictionaries and Lexicons: The term "arkhe" is multifaceted. While it often denotes "beginning" or "commencement," it also implies "origin," "source," and "first cause."
     BDAG (Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon) lists "beginning, origin, first cause, ruler, authority" among its meanings, explicitly recognizing the term's application to Christ in Revelation 3:14 as the "origin" of God's creation.
     Thayer's Greek Lexicon also supports this interpretation, noting that "arkhe" can mean "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause." This aligns perfectly with understanding Christ as the originator of creation.
  3. Philosophical and Theological Usage: The use of "arkhē" in philosophical works often parallels its usage in theological contexts to denote not just the start but the cause or source. For example, Aristotle discusses "arkhē" as the "principle" or "origin" from which things come into being. This does not imply that the "arkhē" itself is created but rather that it is the originator or causal agent.
  4. Contextual Analysis of Revelation 3:14: In Revelation 3:14, the phrase "ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ" (the beginning of God's creation) can be understood as stating Christ's role as the originating source of all creation. This aligns with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Christ is described as the agent through whom all things were created. To interpret "arkhē" as indicating Christ as the first created entity contradicts the broader theological testimony of the New Testament regarding His divine nature and role in creation.
  5. Linguistic and Exegetical Considerations: While some argue that "arkhē" in Revelation 3:14 means the first created, such a reading introduces a theological inconsistency with the rest of the New Testament, where Christ's begottenness, preexistence and role as the agent of the creation are emphasized. The interpretation of "arkhē" as "first cause" or "originator" fits more cohesively with the scriptural depiction of Christ's divine status and function.
  6. Theological Implications: Adopting a view where "arkhē" means "first created" raises significant theological concerns about the nature of Christ and His relationship to the Father. Such a view would place Christ within the created order, fundamentally altering the Christian understanding of the the eternally begotten nature of the Son.

  In summary, while dictionaries provide foundational meanings, the interpretation of terms like "arkhē" must consider broader scriptural, theological, and philosophical contexts. In Revelation 3:14, understanding "arkhē" as indicating Christ's preeminent authority and role as the originating source of all creation is both linguistically viable and theologically consistent.

  https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/13/does-revelation-314-teach-jesus-is-gods-first-creation-pt-1/

  https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/13/does-revelation-314-teach-that-jesus-is-gods-first-creation-pt-2/
  
• 

  Blotty

  “arguing, polemicizing against a point of view does not come from emotion ("hate") but from intellectual conviction.” - then review the principles of the book you claim to study because you come off as a person who hates or ignores anyone who states other than your opinion.. yes all of your rambling is opinion, not fact.

  look at yourself next time before throwing bible verses at me please ( on swearing) …

  “Proverbs 9:10” - means the commencement of Wisdom not the first cause, the fear of YHWH is not the source of Wisdom it is the start point of Wisdom.

  Barnes notes on psalm 110:10

  “Is the beginning of wisdom - The foundation, the origin, the commencement of being truly wise. It is so. There is no true wisdom which does not recognize the being, the perfections, and the claims of God. The highest wisdom - the most lofty endowment of man - is that he "may" know and honor God. This, in capability, makes him wise above the brute creation; this, in exercise, makes one man more wise than another; this, when it springs up in the soul, makes a man more wise than he was before - or, is the "beginning" of true wisdom in the soul. Compare Proverbs 1:7; Proverbs 9:10; Deuteronomy 4:6; Job 28:28; Ecclesiastes 12:13.”

  Barnes on Rev 3:14

  ““that he is the author of the creation, and in that sense the beginning - though expressing a scriptural doctrine John 1:3; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:16, is not in accordance with the proper meaning of the word used here - ἀρχὴ archē. The word properly refers to the "commencement" of a thing, not its "authorship," and denotes properly primacy in time, and primacy in rank, but not primacy in the sense of causing anything to exist.”

  This is a trinitarian by the way.

  On a trinity leaning website.

  Can admit the “witness position” is the actual meaning.

  I can cite significant commentary for the others aswell ( except Sirach and Wisdom) - why doesn’t BDAG cite these verses under the meaning you apply them too? No dictionary does… yet they cite Philos writing under that exact meaning.

  Both Col 1:16 and John 1:3 uses a passive verb not an active (. Heb 1:10 is a quotation and so would be active)

  Note: Matt verse “by the lord” “through the angel” - where the verb is also passive , infect any verse that uses “dia” to express agency.

  Recent scholarship considers this significant so did Origen and in other ways Justin and Tetullian..

  “Anyway, you should read this through:” - if it’s written by you I’m not interested as I have seen this pasted else where online just altered slightly- hence I don’t see you as a credible source of info… more of a theologically motivated troll, about as good as the quote mining accusation you throw at other respectable people on this forum.

  I don’t count myself in the “respectable people ” group by the way.

  “or instance, Philo of Alexandria, a Hellenistic Jewish philosopher,” - exactly a philosopher, were any of the bible writers philosophers? No, so you cannot go lumping philos usage in with the bible writers - different usages for words.. not relevant - to a restricted context.

  “The dictionary citation you provided acknowledges that "arkhe" can indeed mean "first cause" or "origin," supporting the interpretation that Christ is the source of creation.[ omitted for space sake] “

  - you omitted this bit, not entirely sure how you missed it - and I thought quite mining was bad? What was what you did then? I can do that aswell

  “Rv 3:14; but the mng. beginning=‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the Ἀρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160–77). “

  Note: In an earlier edition this lexicon said “possible” not “probable”

  Will also throw in Gen 49:3 both the Hebrew and LXX

  You should read that study, actual linguistical scholarship in there by a non JW who even repeats what I told you ages ago regarding John’s usage of arkhe ( not invented by the witnesses)

  Self imposed rule and a strict pattern he follows else he would of used arkhe in Rev 1:5 aswell. Well he makes the observation if memory serves.

  And observe Barnes’ statement in Rev 3:14, I can cite more of you like. ( in their entirety, you can’t accuse me of quote mining then. )

  “BDAG (Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich Lexicon) lists "beginning, origin, first cause, ruler, authority" among its meanings, explicitly recognizing the term's application to Christ in Revelation 3:14 as the "origin" of God's creation.”

  - read immediate above, yet it strangely omits the other verses you try to use for the same meaning .

  “Thayer's Greek Lexicon also supports this interpretation, noting that "arkhe" can mean "that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause." “

  - but cites no scripture for this claim and All Verses you claim are absent for the definition

  Unless you are looking at a different one to me.. that’s possible but I think unlikely since you didn’t cite the relevant portion in its entirety like you would if it did.

  “This aligns with John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16, where Christ is described as the agent through whom all things were created. To interpret "arkhē" as indicating Christ as the first created entity contradicts the broader theological testimony of the New Testament regarding His divine nature and role in creation.”

  - you can be created and still be divine… and again read above… that last point is your opinion as modern scholarship agrees with me on Job 38:7

  So there’s no way around that angels had a passive role in creation.

  Tettulian also agrees with me.

  “such a reading introduces a theological inconsistency with the rest of the New Testament, where Christ's begottenness, preexistence and role as the agent of the creation are emphasized.”

  - yet prov 8 and other works such as Sirach and Baruch which modern scholarship considers parallels would entirely disagree..

  note: proverbs 8:12 where Wisdom uses a first person pronoun, only once which is here.

  Scholars note wisdom and Wisdom are two totally seperate things

  “Such a view would place Christ within the created order, fundamentally altering the Christian understanding of the the eternally begotten nature of the Son.”

  - before Nicaea ( 4th cen) “begotten”and “created” were considered synonyms as can be seen in the lxx

  See: Psalms 90:2: for a start

  you can have a point of coming into existence and still be eternal into the future..