by Sea Breeze 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
When I was pioneering, I don't remember ever addressing the rapture question. Does anyone know how a JW would respond to this verse?
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. - 1 Thess. 4
The JW answer was that it prophesied the resurrection of deceased anointed ones in 1918, all at once. However, they never addressed verse 17 with any finality which says "Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
They did offer that it 'could' be that the annointed still alive prior to Armageddon could be taken to heaven all at once, but they waffled back and forth as to when this might occur. While saying that all anointed would share in the battle of Armageddon as brothers of Christ, they later said that some could live through Armageddon and be taken afterward. Clearly, they have no insight on the matter, per their usual 'make it up as they go' method of muddling through scriptural explanations.
I recall some 'heavies' saying that that 1 Thess sounded like Christendom's version of the rapture, but they did not want to use the word. Typical WTC spin.
WTC also uses these verses as proof that Jesus is Michael the archangel.
I always found it puzzling that they claimed that the Kingdom was established in 1914, but had no officials other than Christ until 1918. Details, details - don't bother Watchtower with details.
They did offer that it 'could' be that the annointed still alive prior to Armageddon could be taken to heaven all at once
I do remember someone posting something about that here on JWN fairly recently, in the past few years, So, it seems that the WT is allowing for a rapture of sorts ... only for those claiming to be of the 144K of course.
I don't really see how they could outright deny it. The verse is very clear... we will "meet the Lord in the air". Trying to symbolize something that clear is probably too risky.
I wonder what the old "understanding" was?
JWs are illiterate (as are fundie Christians) to historical references.
1 Thessalonians 4 is using imagery of the Roman adventus practice that was around in the 1st century. It was first seen as Jesus approached Jerusalem with the crowds around him as he entered Jerusalem, and words in Acts that Jesus would return from the same way he left at the ascension.
In the Roman adventus, the people from the town would leave the city to approach the emperor or his dignitaries and escort them back into the city. The gospel images of this happening were a political statement about Jesus. Around that time of Jesus entering Jerusalem, Pilate would also be entering the city, setting up the imagery of a conflict between God’s kingdom and that of the Roman Empire.
1 Thessalonians 4, Jesus descending from heaven is greeted and escorted by his followers. The verses never say that they are all then whisked away to heaven. The understanding was always that the kingdom of God would be restored on Earth. Revelation shows that imagery of New Jerusalem descending from heaven to Earth where God and Jesus will dwell.
JWs and the rapture fundies are just ignorant.
@Pronger1
So, according to you - New Jerusalem descending to earth is literal but meeting Jesus in the air like scriptures says is symbolic. And, anyone who disagrees with your ability to know which verses are literal and which ones are symbolic is "ignorant".
This style of hermeneutics sounds familiar for some reason.
Rapture is a misunderstanding of what Paul said.
People believe that Jesus will return and then the Christians will disappear and then go to heaven.
Such is not a Biblical teaching. Another popular belief that is not thought out.
1 Thess 4:14 "faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus."
Since Pentecost Christian became anointed with holy spirit and Paul explains that when they die and they sleep in death.
Paul didn't know that would be limited to 144,000 as that number was not given until Revelation.
Then the events of Rev 12 occurred in 1914 and Jesus cleansed the heavens by casting Satan and his demons out. That fulfills John 14:2,3
"In the house of my Father are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be." This right here is what Jesus meant when he said he is coming again. He is not coming to the earth, he is coming to has apostles by resurrecting them to him.
That is what Paul meant by 1 Thess 4:15 "For this is what we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death;"
16 "because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. (Actually they don't rise, he
should have said they will be raised first)
The ones who are dead in Christ (anointed ones who have died) were resurrected at that time.
Then after that time, when anointed Christians die, they immediately get raised to heaven and not sleep in death.
It's that simple, sleep in death vs no sleep in death.
v 17 "Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord."
That is where the rapture gets it wrong. They have to die first. He also explains that here:
1 Cor 15:50 "Now I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the corruptible inherit the incorruptible."
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed."
Also, Paul is not one to listen to about details about future events. He was not a prophet. He
talks in fancy language. "in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet." Where did he get this?
He didn't know anything about trumpets. Trumpets were not in play until Revelation.
"be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air;" More fancy talk. Where did he get that from?
Jesus' ascension when he rose to the air? Paul should know that Jesus is not in the air, he is a spirit
being.
As of right now (or rather 1995) all of the 144,000 have been anointed and sealed. There is just a handful that
have not been raised to heavenly life.
@Sea Breeze
I never said that New Jerusalem descending out of heaven to Earth is literal. Your reading comprehension is abysmal.
The writers of these texts were Jewish men. Jews did not believe in going off to heaven. Every bit of Hebrew scripture points to God’s kingdom being on Earth. Paul used the symbolism of the Roman adventus in having Jesus return to Earth. It was a statement of Jesus’ kingship. The Gospel writers used the same imagery of the Roman adventus in Jesus’ entering Jerusalem. Any reader of the time would have known exactly what this imagery meant. Any modern reader who understands historical Roman practices would understand.
JWs and fundamentalist Christians don’t because they don’t pay attention to history. JWs and fundamentalist Christians think the Bible was written to them and try to find signs in modern events to interpret the texts because the rapture/Armageddon is imminent to them.
The teaching changed in 2015 W 7/15
We do not use the word “rapture” here to describe this event because of its connection to Christendom’s false teaching. However, the faithful anointed still on earth will be gathered together instantly.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402015523?q=rapture&p=par
@Rattigan350
What the heck are you talking about with the 144,000?
Go back and read Revelation and pay attention to what it says, not what some preacher told you.
Look At Revelation 5. So this John guy is chatting with an angel. John hears the angel him to look and behold the Lion of Judah. John turns and what does he see? A lamb as if slaughtered covered in blood. He hears the Lion of Judah and sees the slaughtered lamb. Who is the Lion of Judah? Jesus. Who is the slaughtered lamb? Jesus.
So now you’ve seen the pattern. The motif of hearing something and when actually seeing the fulfillment, it isn’t what is expected. Jews thought their Messiah was going to be a warrior king, who would overthrow the oppressive empire. Yet the fulfillment was far different than they thought.
Now look at Revelation 7. Again this John guy HEARS the number 144,000.. 12,000 out of each tribe of Israel. But when he looks, what does he see. A great multitude out of every nation that he could not number. The 144,000 is the great multitude fulfilled in an unexpected way for the Jews. The nations, another way of saying gentiles, is included in their numbers.
This hears then looks for pattern of unexpected fulfillment repeats several times in Revelation.
Your ideas on the 144,000 are way off.
Your Idea that Jesus was not bodily resurrected is way off too. When Jesus appeared to Thomas, you paint Jesus as a deceiver creating fake wounds to convince Thomas of who he is. You make Jesus into a liar.
John 2
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” 20 The Jews then said, “This temple has been under construction for forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was speaking of the temple of his body.
Jesus spoke of his body being raised.
Luke 24
39 Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see, for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
