The Rapture

by Sea Breeze 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    John Chrysostom: For as when a king ceremoniously entered a city, certain dignitaries and city rulers, and many others who were confident toward the sovereign, would go out of the city to meet him; but the guilty and the condemned criminals would be guarded within, awaiting the sentence which the king would deliver. In the same way, when the Lord comes, those who are confident toward him will meet him in the midst of the air, but the condemned, who are conscious of having committed many sins, will wait below for their judge.

    It seems clear that Chrysostom understood 1 Thess as Pronger1 asserted , as a Roman style greeting procession. I've discussed this with others years ago. IMO it remains the best explanation. However the Pauline material (authorship aside) does clearly express hope of residing in heaven.(2 Cor 5:1)

    For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

    This in fact was commonly accepted in a number of forms of Judaism including Pharisaism.

    IMO, the writer was describing a processional greeting of the King upon his return but how he imagined the next stage is uncertain. Some have suggested the "and thus we shall forever be with the Lord" is an editor's or marginal gloss. This makes sense given the difficult sentence structure. Pauline material was otherwise extensively redacted and interpolated. But as is true of so much, we must accept we just can't be certain.

  • ThomasMore
    ThomasMore

    Rattigan - you wrote:

    "As of right now (or rather 1995) all of the 144,000 have been anointed and sealed."

    Can you please elaborate on this comment. I have never heard that JW's ever felt 1995 was pivotal.

  • Pronger1
    Pronger1

    @peacefulpete

    2 Corinthians 5:1 is not speaking of a place.. earth vs heaven. Paul is using the word tent to represent the body. He restates this by changing tent to clothing.

    Keep reading. Paul is comparing the mortal human body with the future immortal body. Not becoming disembodied, but re-embodied.

    For in this tent we groan, longing to be further clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 for surely when we have been clothed in it we will not be found naked. 4 For while we are in this tent, we groan under our burden because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

    Paul uses earthly vs heavenly not as location but corruptible vs incorruptible. See 1 Corinthians 15:47-53. Earth isn’t speaking of the planet earth, but dust.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Prolog1....I can't agree that his description of spirit 'bodies' amounts to a denial of going to heavenly presence of Christ.

    Paul uses earthly vs heavenly not as location but corruptible vs incorruptible.

    I see Paul saying earthly is corruptible and heavenly is incorruptible.

    How do you understand Phil.1:

    If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

  • Pronger1
    Pronger1

    The context of Philippians is it is one of Paul’s prison letters. Paul is framing this to his audience that if his captors decided to execute him (see 2 Corinthians 1:8-11), that Paul was ready for it. That his death wouldn’t mean things went badly wrong. But he also is communicating that there is more work to do.

    Paul, again, isn’t speaking about going off to heaven. First century Jewish thought on the afterlife was that “paradise (Luke 23:43)” was an intermediary state of rest, after death, prior to the resurrection. Just a couple chapters over, Paul speaks of his hope of resurrection (3:11).

    Go back and 1 Thessalonians 4. Read verse 16 again.

    16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    Jesus descends from heaven. The dead don’t descend from heaven. They rise. Paul believed the dead were in Sheol. Paul also believed Jesus was in Sheol. Jesus filled all things.

    Ephesians 4

    8 Therefore it is said,

    “When he ascended on high, he made captivity itself a captive;
    he gave gifts to his people.”

    9 (When it says, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the same one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might fill all things.)


  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Pronger1....It's tempting to generalize about what Jews believed. However, the reality is 2nd temple Judaism was richly diverse. The extent literature from the time reveals no consensus regarding afterlife. Heaven, Gehenna, reincarnation, return to life on earth, no afterlife at all, all were accepted by various groups that identified as Jews. There were detailed depictions of multilayered heavens wherein OT characters were dwelling and martyrs could ascend to. The concept of 'Paradise' itself was just as diverse.

    As a writer from a such a diverse period, Paul's understanding of the topic is open to debate. In fact, IMO, there seems to not be a clearly expressed concise belief in the writings attributed to him. He (as it reads today) seems to be struggling with the topic.

    I'm going to step away for a while so best wishes on your research.

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    My understanding was the same as ThomasMore's: it was describing the way the anointed would be immediately summoned to heaven upon death, which began to happen after 1914. I don't even recall hearing the word "rapture" much at all as a JW. To the extent that I ever thought about it, I assume I saw it as another false teaching of "Christendom."

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    In practice, it’s the same basic concept (albeit reserved for a select few)…

    …they just didn’t/wouldn’t call it that, for the same reason they label virtually everything else different from “Christendom”

    Contrarian for the sake of contrarianism. 🙄

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    pronger1 "Paul used the symbolism of the Roman adventus in having Jesus return to Earth"

    No one believed that Jesus would return to the earth. Because Jesus never said he would.

    It's this simple:

    John 14:2-4 " In the house of my Father are many dwelling places. Otherwise, I would have told you, for I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be. And where I am going, you know the way.”"

    Jesus here said he will come again. but to receive them to himself. His coming is by his resurrecting them.

    Paul said that there would be a heavenly Jerusalem. The king would rule from heaven. That way the enemies can't touch him.

    However, we can't follow what Paul or Jesus said as that is old light. They didn't have the Revelation.

  • Rattigan350
    Rattigan350

    "However, the faithful anointed still on earth will be gathered together instantly."

    I don't know that that is necessarily true.

    They still have to die to be raised.

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