Atheism would not appeared if …

by venus 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Onager
    Onager

    Hi David Jay,

    My question was for you particularly and anyone else generally.

    " I don't subscribe to the concept of debating about concepts which have no practical application."

    So... You're Anti-semantic? :)

    "I was not whatever you said before, and thus am not anything (having to do with that subject) now."

    That's the whole of my point, You're not atheist before you are aware of the concept of god, you're only atheist once you are aware and make a decision that the concept is false.

    This might be hair splitting semantics, but it's where I disagree with Richard Dawkins. I don't believe children are born atheist. I believe they are born innocent.

    (and fwiw, I've loved Jewish people ever since I toured Israel. I just don't like the Israeli government.)

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    How about dark matter? Neither can be seen, felt or measured.

    CS, Dark matter has been measured, indirectly through its gravitational effect on matter. Science isn't in the business of making wild suggestions based on nothing more than hearsay and speculation, that would be the job of people who believe in the supernatural. Yes, the definition of your god is probably that it is supernatural.

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Belief in gods or supernatural agents developed over the vacuous amount of ignorance of the world in which we live expressed through mythological expressions, they were a required necessity to explain what, how and why.

    Atheism developed by making questionable scrutiny to those expressions and acceptance in deities controlling what occurs here on earth and of us.

    It should be noted that every human being that lived on this planet were born atheists.

    It wasn't until homo sapiens increased its level of intelligence to a level of imagination of what was seen and experienced to provoke thoughts of supernatural beings to fill in that void of knowledge.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel
    Venus » You conclude: "Thus, if there is a God, it stands to reason He would reveal Himself...and conceal Himself." No influence of God is seen in religions, scriptures and believers which in turn gave reason for the appearance of atheism. For example, one high profile atheist is known for his question: “Why do people kill in the name of God if He really exists?”

    It's an outstanding question, and one you won't get an argument from me on. If God is as powerful as the scriptures proclaim, He hardly needs anyone fighting His battles for Him. The Jews have been on the bloody end of many swords because of this, as have been the early Christians, scientists, protestants, Mormons and many other religions, and yes, even the Jehovah's Witnesses. But it bothers me that the JWs are so quick to celebrate the prospects of coming destruction of others. There's a smuggish glee about it. Shortly before the Civil War ravaged this country, an old Mormon prophet told the people that wholesale destruction was going to decimate the nation: “There will also be a day when...your very hearts and your inmost souls will melt within you because of the scenes that many of you will witness.” (Remarks by President Heber C. Kimball, Delivered in the Bowery, Great Salt Lake City, Sunday Morning, August 16, 1857). Whether he had special insight or was just making a pitch, what he said did come to pass. But a person would have to be a monster to want to see someone suffer horribly or take delight in it. During that war, the people of Missouri and Ohio were horribly treated, just as the Mormons had been. After the Mormons had been routed from their homes, a divine curse was placed on the people who had driven them from their farms, homes, shops and lands. Less than twenty years later, federal troops (with the full support of President Lincoln) evacuated those same homes, drove the people out, confiscated their livestock, then burned the homes and farms down, leaving the people to fend against the bitter cold weather. It was called General Order Number 11.

    In the 1840s, Joseph Smith told his (non-Mormon) attorney and friend, Alexander Doniphan, not to avail himself of the land speculation going on in that part of the country. “God’s wrath hangs over Jackson Country,” Smith said. “God’s people have been ruthlessly driven from it, and you will live to see the day when it will be visited by fire and sword. The Lord of Hosts will sweep it with the besom of destruction. The fields and farms and houses will be destroyed, and only the chimneys will be left to mark the desolation."

    Decades later, many of the bloodiest battles were fought there. Doniphan, personally witnessed the fulfillment of Smith’s prophecy. One witness of the aftermath wrote: “In the spring of 1862 my regiment went south, and it was during that time that ‘Order No. 11’ was issued, but I was back there again in 1864, during the Price raid, and saw the condition of the country. The duty of executing the order was committed to Colossians W. R. Penick’s regiment, and there is no doubt but that he carried it into effect, from the howl the copperhead papers made at the time. I went down the Blue river, we found houses, barns, outbuildings, nearly all burned down, and nothing left standing but the chimneys which had, according to the fashion of the time, been built on the outside of the buildings. I remember very well that the country looked a veritable desolation.” Doniphan himself wrote that as he saw the remnants of the chimneys and homes that he couldn't help but recall Smith's prophecy. But even though many of these people richly deserved their fates, it would be heartless not to pity them.

    The only time God required His people to kill was in battle and in self defense, and it was to cleanse the land God gave them. In the land of Canaan, the Israelites actually offered many of the peoples peace for safe passage. Some took advantage of it while others wouldn't bargain. It was clear from the revelations to Moses and Joshua that the Lord did not want His people interacting with heathen nations. But these people were universally not good people. They took part in satanic rites, including highly degrading sexual practices and infant sacrifice. They would beat drums to down out the cries of infants as they were burned alive. The Lord universally wanted to rid Canaan of these peoples and practices. But these are the only places where the Lord ordered His people to kill anyone. Sadly, most decisions to kill are made by man, not God.

    This is entirely true of Islam to this day.


    Caedes » Dark matter has been measured, indirectly through its gravitational effect on matter. Science isn't in the business of making wild suggestions based on nothing more than hearsay and speculation, that would be the job of people who believe in the supernatural. Yes, the definition of your god is probably that it is supernatural.

    Science may not be in the business of making wild suggestions based on nothing more than hearsay and speculation, but it's far from unheard of! I agree that science uncovers truths man knows little of, yet it's naive to say it's not political and bull headed at times.

    I would prefer the word supersensible.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Science may not be in the business of making wild suggestions based on nothing more than hearsay and speculation, but it's far from unheard of! I agree that science uncovers truths man knows little of, yet it's naive to say it's not political and bull headed at times.

    I would prefer the word supersensible.

    There is nothing sensible about believing in things for which you have no empirical evidence.

    Yes, it would be naïve to say that science is not political and bull headed at times, that would be why I didn't say it! It may not be unheard of that individual scientists go off the rails but science as a whole is self correcting unlike religion which has had to be dragged kicking and screaming along with every cultural change that has ever happened.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    I have not read the comments previous to Caedes, but to go back to the original Post, I get the feeling that Venus may not be aware of the venerable age of Atheism.

    All of us were born Atheists of course, but many over the Centuries have returned to the position they came in to the world with, as being the only rational one.

    Atheists abounded in ancient Greece for example.

    So, Atheism has not appeared because of a failure by believers in some way, it has been with us constantly because of the failure of the concept of god to be proven.

  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    On this topic, a news release (in 2016) from Cambridge University (UK) suggests that atheism is as natural to humans as is the supernatural.

    https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/disbelieve-it-or-not-ancient-history-suggests-that-atheism-is-as-natural-to-humans-as-religion

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Thanks for the link FTS, and many thanks for your interesting and informative Posts here.

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    @ Onager...

    "Anti-semantic"...

    I gotta remember that one...


  • fulltimestudent
    fulltimestudent

    Attributing the existence of things to a creator is a lazy intellectual exercise. But in past ages, as my previous post drawing attention to a Cambridge University blog post indicated, some humans in the past have been prepared to try to think in a different direction. For centuries, western thought was controlled by the church, and thinking outside the strictly controlled religious box could get you into trouble. But outside of Europe and its later developments, some were free to think of a universe without divinities.

    This is how Guo Xiang (born 252 CE-died 312 CE) devoted thought to the existence of things and in his Zhuangzi (which, along with the Tao Te Ching forms the basis if Daoist thought) argued that 'things' are self-transformed,

    "If we insist on the conditions under which things develop and search for the causes thereof, such search and insistence will never end, until we come to something that is unconditioned, and then the principles of self-transformation will become clear ... there are people who say the shade is conditioned by the shadow, the shadow by the body, and the body by the creator. But let us mask whether there is a creator or not. If not, how can he create things? ... Therefor before we can talk about creation, we must understand the fact that all forms materialise by themselves ... Hence everything creates itself without the direction of any creator. Since things createthemselves, they are unconditioned. This is the norm of the universe." (ch.2 NHCC, 1:46a-47b) -Quoted from Wing-Tsit Chan's, A source book in Chinese Philosophy, Princeton University Press, 1969). Chan is the translator as well as the editor.

    In early Indian thought, thoughtful thinkers arrived at similar conclusions, You can find at least some of the strands of thought in the Wikipedia entry, entitled Atheism in Hinduism.

    (Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_in_Hinduism


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