Diane Abbott XD (page 3)

slimboyfat

It's nothing to do with appeal to authority. The claim was that she lacks intelligence. She certainly doesn't interview well, but not all intelligent people do. Getting into Cambridge, and competing a degree there is probably a better indication of intelligence. I gather she didn't come from a wealthy background. If she's not intelligent then I'd be really interested to know how she pulled it off.

Another comment was that she is unfit to be an MP. I simply pointed out that if there were more MPs like her we would have avoided the Iraq war one of the biggest mistakes in our lifetime. This observation does not require that Iraq is the be all and end it. It's an indication of good judgement, which is surely important. If Portillo was taken in by Blair's lies then that indicates poor judgement. And none of these observations necessitates viewing Lib Dems as a group as good or bad. From what I recall they opposed the war only because the UN didn't sanction it. I think that was one good reason but there were other good reasons as people like Alex Salmond, Diane Abbott, Claire Short, Robin Cook and others argued at the time.

if you are a regular viewer of The Week, do you remember the episode where Portillo came out backing the vote to leave the EU. He said that even if we vote to leave the EU it won't happen because they will negotiate a new settlement? Well it's not looking likely at the moment.

LoveUniHateExams

It's nothing to do with appeal to authority - it's fairly close, actually.

Because Abbott got into Cambridge and I didn't, you're implying that I shouldn't question her public statements and intelligence on matters that are nothing to do with Cambridge University ... tsk, tsk, tsk ... it won't do.

Getting into Cambridge, and competing a degree there is probably a better indication of intelligence - she read History up at Cambridge. Clearly the economy and basic mathematics aren't some of her strong points. XD

Assuming her area of expertise is indeed history, her comments on Chairman Mao become even more ridiculous because she now cannot plead ignorance.

Another comment was that she is unfit to be an MP. I simply pointed out that if there were more MPs like her we would have avoided the Iraq war - we would've avoided the Iraq war but likely been afflicted with a whole set of other serious problems.

This observation does not require that Iraq is the be all and end it. It's an indication of good judgement - good judgement on that issue.

If Portillo was taken in by Blair's lies then that indicates poor judgement - poor judgement on that issue.

By the way, the Iraq war was one of the two very important issues she was right on. What's the other?

LoveUniHateExams

do you remember the episode where Portillo came out backing the vote to leave the EU. He said that even if we vote to leave the EU it won't happen because they will negotiate a new settlement? - but that wasn't the reason why Portillo voted to leave the EU, which was what you claimed earlier.

slimboyfat

I didn't say anything about not questioning her public statements. I was addressing the claim that she is not intelligent. I suggested that getting into Cambridge is a better indication of intelligence than making a fool of yourself on TV or radio. (Or being a loudmouth on an Internet forum for that matter) Is there an alternative explanation for how someone from her background got to Cambridge and completed her degree? I'm actually interested to know. In the absence of another good explanation I think I'll proceed on the basis that she's probably intelligent.

Eric Hobsbawn was a senior historian who defended the Soviet Union. I don't think even his critics would argue he was stupid. His books are brilliant. You don't need to lack intelligence in order to hold strange opinions. In fact intelligence is the root cause of strange opinions in some cases, as intelligent people can devise ingenious ways of justifying odd opinions.

LoveUniHateExams

I was addressing the claim that she is not intelligent - ok fair enough but this was not a claim I made. I said she'd been promoted beyond her ability but I didn't say she was unintelligent.

I suggested that getting into Cambridge is a better indication of intelligence than making a fool of yourself on TV or radio - it probably is but it's clearly not an indication of how capable an MP is! XD

Is there an alternative explanation for how someone from her background got to Cambridge and completed her degree? I'm actually interested to know - I don't know.

But let's shift this to Abbott's ability as an MP, which is what this thread is about. Did Abbott get where she is on merit? Or might there be an alternative explanation for her achievements in politics?

slimboyfat

I think that opposing the Iraq war, even when it was a minority view, is a considerable achievement. It's only in hindsight that it's taken for granted. Like a lot of positions on the left, at first they are ridiculed, then taken for granted. Opposition to the Iraq war is one, Nelson Mandela in the 1980s, minimum wage in the 1990s, and so on. Universal basic income - watch this space.

LoveUniHateExams

I think that opposing the Iraq war, even when it was a minority view, is a considerable achievement - ok fair enough, it was.

But Diane Abbott was one of many rebel MPs who voted against Iraq. When weighing up if she's fit and proper to serve in a Labour government, we can't just just point to her voting record on Iraq in isolation. There are many more instances of how she voted on a range of issues that can inform us. Also, past wacky comments on Mao, the IRA and other issues can likewise inform us.

Opposition to the Iraq war is one, Nelson Mandela in the 1980s - I agree with you on Mandela. He is proof prison works. He was convicted on charges of terrorism, was found guilty, served his sentence and didn't re-offend.

Bravo.

Did Abbott get where she is in politics on merit? Or could there be an alternative explanation for her political success?

Also, you said earlier there are two very important issues Abbott got right. Voting against the Iraq war is one. What's the other?

Simon

Can we get over the fallacy that attending an expensive university and / or getting a degree equates to "intelligence". It's a better measure of wealth and time as much as anything now.

She clearly can't do basic math or basic thinking because she couldn't even grasp how ridiculous her answers were until it was made totally clear and she had the issues spoon fed to her

Many of us opposed the Iraq war because, in my case, I didn't believe the evidence was there and there was lots of evidence that they were deliberately over-egging the pudding based on the actors involved and their behavior at the time.

So with my intelligence credentials firmly established, am I allowed to say that I think she's as thick as shit and only there because of the minority-identity boxes that she ticks.

slimboyfat

Wealth doesn't seem to be an explanation here. Her father was a welder and her mother was a nurse. She went to a grammar school and got there by merit.

I don't think that being poor on TV or radio means you are not intelligent.

In other words, I think it's easier for an intelligent person to look stupid on TV than it is for a stupid person to get a degree from Cambridge. Neither is impossible. I'm just talking about likelihoods.

Basically what I find objectionable is the lazy or conceited assumption that someone who has views you disagree with must be unintelligent.

In all the years watching Portillo with Abbott I've seen him make fun of her and talk about their time at school together. I don't recall him implying she is unintelligent.

LoveUniHateExams

@SBF - ok you, me, Simon, Cofty and others all have our opinions on Diane Abbott's intelligence.

This thread isn't really about whether Abbott got into Cambridge on merit or not.

Simon brings up an interesting issue when he talks about ticking minority boxes.

I had in mind something similar when I posed the following questions:

Did Abbott get where she is in politics on merit?

Or could there be an alternative explanation for her political success?

I find it very hard to believe that Diane Abbott got where she is in politics today on merit.

Regardless of her intelligence, her answers and apparent lack of awareness of how silly her answers sound suggest that she didn't get to the shadow cabinet on merit.

Diane Abbott XD

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