by Maximus 59 Replies latest jw friends
I say again, thank you, Sir Hawk. When anyone e-mails I assume the response will be posted here. Unfortunately one can guess what it will be.
It's been a long but informative day, ending with mixed emotion, but it's good to know someone is doing some very deep thinking in the field.
Jerry
hawk said:
I would like to prove to [Gorman] that the WTS actually printed what they did. Thus, I need a scanned copy of the WT 10/01/2001 QFR and cover page.
I have these scans, and original hard copies. If you provide an email I will happily send the scans along. We can talk about sending an original hard copy to a physical address, if need be. Maximus knows me. If you prefer you can send your email address through him, since I think you two have already connected. My email has been opened here, but I cannot confirm whether direct email requests are coming from you or not.
Hi Maximus,
I have just now read this thread and thanks for the info. It as amazed me, what little reading I've done in 3 months out, the things that Israel did like this. Pouring out blood as A HUNTING RITUAL, for crying out loud.
So many of the Bible stories, myths, beliefs came from the Sumerians (Abraham was from Ur in Sumer). Also, the story of Cain and Abel was from another myth but no death resulted and was about disputes between farmers and herders. Sorry, not giving references. Most of it is from a book "Middle Eastern Mythology."
When I read the erudite posts that so many like yourself make, I am stunned at being duped by WTBS. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten any who will listen. You asked, how do we feel about this egregious deception? 'Sick, sorry, sad, disgusted.' But frustrated mostly at wanting to get others we care about to listen.
Thanks,
Pat
Post Script,
In reading books by Jared Diamond and Richard Dawkins about evolution, I've noticed time and again the underhanded way that the whole theory of evolution has been painted by the WTBS.
There IS a reasonable side to the evolutionists' story, but the WTS presents it as ludicrous. For instance, they present half-statements, as you pointed out, ridicule it, and never fairly let you know what the issue is. One case in point is where the author states something like 'this book could be read as science fiction,' (the WT stops there), but the rest of the quote is that it is nevertheless true.
Harumph!
Pat
Turn to Jesus, he's the real God and he loves you sooooo much. With him, you will not be lonely. Go to intouch.org and click on MyIntouch, then broadcasts, then audio archives and stroll down and look for a topic referring to loneliness and reassurance and love through the real truth. Go buy a normal bible from a Christian bookstore and learn the truth. Jesus said, the truth will set you free! It will!
Jesus loves you!
Not by works, but by faith!
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves (The Holy Spirit); it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Someone has kindly sent me scans, which I will forward to Hawk tomorrow. If anyone writes, kindly omit the personal extraneous banter of the thread and attempts at identification of contributors. Thanks!
______
RRS, I'm not sure what you see in this thread, that you post this recommendation (commercial?) here. I'm puzzled, particularly because I am joyous and have no feeling of being alone. After decades of intense Bible study, I feel no need of reassurance.
I've visited your site, now perhaps you would return the courtesy.
Would you kindly define a "normal Bible?" Some have suggested that the King James Version is the only normal Bible. If so, then God speaks only Elizabethan English. Is this perhaps what you mean? Could you clarify?
I note you cited not only Eph 2:8 but v. 9 as well. Verse 10 continues: "For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life." (That's from what most folks would call a normal Bible that I bought from a Christian bookstore, the NRSV.)
What are these good works that are to be our way of life, if it is all a matter of grace? No need to define grace; I thoroughly grasp the concept, down to its roots in the Old Testament.
Incidentally, the next verse (11) reads: "So then, remember that at one time you Gentiles by birth, called 'the uncircumcision' by those who are called 'the circumcision' ... remember that you were at that time without Christ ... now you have been brought near."
I ask, To whom was the book of Ephesians specifically written? In what year? Why was it written? What was the idea the Bible writer conveying to his audience, particularly in the context of the cited verses?
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Would you tell me where this Bible verse is found, who wrote it, and why it was written?
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to make yet another point about how vital it is to look at context. Welcome, RRS.
Maximus
Edit: There was no need to send the identical post to my hotmail account, RRS. I would just change the tense of your title: The truth HAS set me free.
This intellectual dishonesty reminds me of a biblical scholar that the WTS quoted in their favor for the NWT. In the video, "Witnesses of Jehovah", the scholar(his name escapes me) says on camera that the NWT is a piece garbage(my words). Anyone remember who that scholar was and what quote in particular that the WTS dishonestly lifted from him? Guess I'll watch the video again.
TR
"Kults Suk"
Hello Noble Max,
In the Watchtower 10/15/00 Questions from Readers about its policy on blood and blood fractions, there appears a quotation from "Professor Frank Gorman," which reads: "The pouring out of the blood is best understood as an act of reverence that demonstrates respect for the life of the animal and, thus, respect for God, who created and continues to care for that life." - Maximus
I have a full-blooded Indian friend who hunts a lot. He's quiet about it, says he never kills more than his family can eat. He also says he hunts "the Indian way" - showing respect for the animal's life that the Indian is taking, one way is pouring the blood on the ground in silence. A thank you and tribute to the animal.
It would seem that other ancient persons have the same thinking - respect for the life of the animal, which is symbolized in the blood. Nothing more or less.
And our beloved WTBTS has taught us to let ourselves and our children to die by misleading quotes - and not giving us their source so that we can check it our for ourselves - after all, it is our lives! And then, all the while, telling us that we were the best bible-taught people in the world - the Only bible-taught people.
Randy Watters, in his book "Thus Saith the Governing Body," which is entirely quotes from the WTBTS, gives example after example (all pages scanned from their writings) of misquotes - or the famous "...(phrase)..." employed. Then, he and others have researched (because sources are not given) and found the original quotes - and scanned the whole page so that it can be seen that the original thought from the author has been changed.
At first, it's so disheartening to think that we've wasted so much of our heart and mind. Then the freedom of thought and action begins to take hold, and we learn.
Thanks, Maximus.
Hello Jerry,
For those who do, can you tell me if this article or essay has been refuted elsewhere on the board?Do you view this as credible? Believeable? - Jerry
If you're referring to the article on the misrepresentation of an author to back up the WTBTS doctrine of evolution - yes, I find it not only believeable but just fits the pattern they've established for their Writing Integrity, which seems to be non-existent sometimes.
Evolution probably will be debated "till the cows come home" between fundamentalists and others. But at least let it be done with cards on the table - full quotes from scientists, fundamentalists, name, of book, page number, paragraph. Let the reader see the argument - not half quotes, misquotes, etc.
When we argue/discuss on this forum or others, we have the right to ask - even demand - to know where the source is coming from - and how do we find it. If not - most of the time, it's not viewed as a credible argument. Because so much is not the quote - but what surrounds the quote.
Take care. Long, informative, days can change our lives. I know it did mine - and I don't understand half of what Maximus argues until the third reading. But, lord, it's worth the time.
waiting
Difficult to believe but I've proved it for myself. Thanks for giving me the http://www.jwbloodreview.org
tip.
When I take that big step back backward from the slogan we've heard for years and years, "abstain from blood," and all the argumentation involving Noachian law/covenant/principles, Mosaic Law, the Apostolic Decree, I have better perspective. Icome down with a kernel of truth.
Blood is a symbol of something. Surely everyone agrees on that.
The reality is human life, precious to God.
The symbol cannot possibly be more precious than the reality.
Therefore,
SACRIFICING A CHILD'S LIFE COULD NOT SHOW RESPECT TO GOD.
Plain and simple, I will no longer wait for a Governing Body majority vote on the future of myself or my children.
Now I have grave concerns about a Governing Body. Fleshly relatives of mine have been in the organization since the 1920's and are of the anointed. To my shock I have learned they have never accepted the changing doctrines on blood, and yet I know no more loyal Witnesses. One of them said last night, "Well, the Governing Body never asked my opinion."
The equation FDS=GB is not a Biblical formula. That's the long and short of it, Waiting.
Have I missed anything in the above reasoning? I really appreciate the help of each one of you.
Jerry
Thought of something to add. Does anyone know why the New World Translation changed from "keep yourselves free ... from blood" to "abstain"?
Is there something in print on this that I've missed? Can't find it on any search.
Thank you.
Hey Jerry,
My husband's family is soooo old in the WTBT, they used to call it "The M.......... Religion" down here - his 80 year old mom has a picture of CT Russell on her front room wall, above the chair where he sat one time. She's a good woman, her husband an excellent elder, he was crushed time and again by other elders. His grandmother gave all her money in her will to build the first KH here.
Btw, Maximus lived around here for several years, my husband nearly worshipped him when he was a boy. Max taught him how to work up his first talk. My husband told his mom that he had found Max and that he wasn't df'd (his mother had told him he was df'd.) His mother said that she thought for sure he would be because he was too smart to stay in The Truth. "Just too smart for his own good."
I've found that Maximus is an excellent teacher (could do without the Latin though.)
My husband never fit in (independent spirit) locally. When he started web reading/comparing - he just kept saying "I knew it! I knew it! I just didn't know what I knew."
SACRIFICING A CHILD'S LIFE COULD NOT SHOW RESPECT TO GOD. - JerryThe equation FDS=GB is not a Biblical formula - Jerry
Have I missed anything in the above reasoning? - Jerry
Brother, you sure do catch on faster than I did. But the end result is the same - somehow the sunshine comes in, and it ain't New Light.
Then we read. The Internet is a jw library about the WTBTS. What's different on the web is that sources are given, you can compare, investigate yourself, you can read, walk away, come back, think, digest, throw a tantrum, cry..........then learn a little more.
Difficult to believe but I've proved it for myself. -Jerry
Not difficult at all, Jerry.
Take care.
waiting
