by logansrun 51 Replies latest watchtower bible
"God, the catch-all explanation for things we cannot understand, is becoming less and less useful as we are better able to explain our universe."
With such enlightenment I wonder how much longer it will be necessary for God to remain the catch-all blame for things we cannot understand?
Inevitably proof of God retreats to the first nonosecond after the big bang. Why? because we do not yet understand the nuts and bolts of quantum physics. That's fine. I just wish this god were left in the cosmic past where he evidently left us.
Too much will always be inconceivable to the untrained mind. Our minds evolved to survive in a simple cause and effect world. It never needed to deal with issues of exotic physics so these concepts appear strange even illogical to our primate brains. It is only with great discipline, effort and appreciation for a reality we will never fully grasp can science unlock these mysteries. The rest of us naked apes will always be shaking our heads and declaring it all impossible.
Double Edge,
It's okay cause Brad will "get it". That's what his egomaniacal butt gets when he makes me read topics he's started especially when I'm sleepy.
~Az
What sets humans apart from other animals on this planet is that we create. Just like God who created, we create because we were made in god's image. We are tool makers we can image in our minds what will be, and then use resources to create reality from these ideas.
A man conceives an idea in his minds eye, uses resources available to create this new invention that never existed before and makes it a reality. This idea, creation is now part of our physical world where it never existed before.
If this item breaks down and fails because of imperfect physical resources or because of abuse, does this mean that it was never created by someone? Does this mean that the person who created it never existed? Should others blame the man who created it for the fact that his creation was not perfect and didn't last forever or was abused and broke? Should athers claim that this person must be dead because the physical manifistation of his ideas did not last forever?
Just because God created, I think at times we as humans ask too much of him in that what OUR expectations are from him. What he created is not perfect. Often we want to look for someone else to pin the blame on.
As Robyn stated quite well, it is up to us to make the changes to improve our world.
What if God is not a conscious being? What if God is not separated from the rest of the universe?
I believe that the good things are part of God, and the evil things are also part of God.
God is the All powerful force - the universe exists within and part of and because of God. Without death, the universe would not exist because death is necessary. The universe could be seen as an evolving entity and therefore BLAME isn't attributed to a separate all powerful force - rather blame rests on each and every component of the universe.
The Gods and Goddesses we have are human interpretation of this force. It allows us a way to contact that part of ourselves which is divine.
Sirona
In the 60's they killed morality
In the 70's they killed God
In the 80's they killed fashion
In the 90's they killed communism
In the 00's they killed science
This generation is far more tolerance of "mystical" experience and belief's than quite a few before it, for some time.
Being quite pragmatic, I wouldn't believe in God unless I met Him, either......
(LT - Still a Christian, who still hates religion for religion's sake)
Nice to see you back LT! How, though, did anyone "kill" science in the 00's? Science is as strong as ever, mind you, even though most people are totally ignorant of it's findings and methods.
Science and empiricism is simply the most effective strategem developed by humankind for uncovering facts about our universe and ourselves. Religion and mysticism are the least.
Bradley
Science is as strong as ever, mind you, even though most people are totally ignorant of it's findings and methods.
Science is not thought the panacea it once was.
Besides, so many things are hidden in little black boxes, it's becoming magic again. For example - do you have any idea how a microwave oven works, and could you "create" one?
Just a thought - not all are into science in the same way...
I think you did a noble thing, LR, in separating this debate into the two different arguments - the moral and scientific reasons for or against God's existence. We cannot draw implications of one set from the conclusions of another.
Scientifically I just don't really know enough to argue for or against different minutae of our knowledge of the function of the universe. Dr Watson said that the more we learn, the less useful God becomes as an explanation. I know what he means, but I think he is extrapolating a MORAL implication (We should abandon the idea of God) from a scientific conclusion (For instance, God is not holding up the Sun). This is dangerous. In a similar way, eugenics erupted as a moral implication of evolutionary theory.
But to blame all evolutionists for the Nazi's depraved excesses is to make a scientific implication (Evolution should be disregarded) from a moral conclusion (exterminating races of people is bad).
There are two concepts of God that sometimes get confused in debate threads like this: God as benevolent (a moral concept) and God as Creator (a scientific concept).
So - what does this mean for our debate? I propose we take this in a new direction, following the above guidelines - science cannot provide morals, and morals cannot provide science. Therefore, scientific knowledge, or the lack thereof, does not prove or disprove the notion of God as benevolent completely - it merely explains a function of our universe. Neither does morality, or the absence thereof, prove or disprove the notion of God as Creator. You can only use morality or its lack to prove or disprove God's benevolence. You can likewise only use science to prove or disprove God's creative input.
These are the new rules I propose, in order to help further clarify and define our debate.
CZAR
Besides, so many things are hidden in little black boxes, it's becoming magic again. For example - do you have any idea how a microwave oven works, and could you "create" one?
Since when has the average Joe ever been able to explain thoroughly how a microwave oven works or how to build one? This isn't anything new.
