In the Jesus Mysteries book they say how Christian try to discredit these pre-Christian stories by claiming Satan planted these stories before Christ was born in order to miss lead us.
Will
Osiris-Dionysus
by yxl1 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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seven006
Iv posted this before, it's an oldie but goody. The stories about Krishna are 600 years before Jesus supposedly walked the earth and the stories about Buddha are 300 years before Jesus. What follows are just a small part of the "similarities". The Krishna and Buddha stories don't start out with talking snakes and naked women eating fruit, but I think somewhere in the stories it says all three wore Nikes. Dionysus came late to the game so he didn't get a shoe endorsement.
There are Many books that explain the culmination of religious myth and how they come about. Two very good ones are Joseph Campbell's "The power of Myth" and T. W. Doane's book "Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions.
Here is a cut and paste of just a few similarities about the myths of Buddha, Krishna, and Jesus that is discussed in some of Doanes writings. This comparison is a "very small part" of the paralleling stories that are identical in Christian, Hindu and Buddhist religious myth.
1.Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
2.Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
3.Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty--seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.)
4.At the conclusion of their fasts, they both wandered to a fig tree. (Hans Joachim Schoeps, An Intelligent Person's Guide to the Religions of Mankind (London, 1967), p. 167; Matthew 21:18--19.)
5.Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry:
*"When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self--possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty--nine years of age...". (Encyclopedia Americana (New York: Rand McNally and Co., 1963), vol. 4, p. 672.)
*"Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23).6.Both were tempted by the "devil" at the beginning of their ministry:
*To Buddha, he said: "Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents." (Moncure D. Conway, The Sacred Anthology (London, 1874), p. 173.)
*To Jesus, he said: "All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9).7.Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38)
*Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10).8.Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left:
*For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.)
*For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11).9.The multitudes required a sign from both in order that they might believe. (Muller, Science, p. 27; Matthew 16:1.)
10.Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. (Beal, p. x; Matthew 4:17.)
*Buddha "represented himself as a mere link in a long chain of enlightened teachers." (Muller, Science, p. 140.)11.Jesus said: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law, and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17).
12.According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic's eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. (Ibid., p. 245)
*Jesus said: "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;" (Matthew 5:29).13."Buddha taught that the motive of all our actions should be pity or love of our neighbor." (Ibid., p. 249)
*Jesus taught: "...love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44).14.Buddha said: "Hide your good deeds, and confess before the world the sins you have committed." (Ibid., p.28)
*Jesus said: "Beware of practicing your piety before men to be seen by them;" (Matthew 6:1) and "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed..." (James 5:16).15.Both are said to have known the thoughts of others:
*"By directing his mind to the thoughts of others, [Buddha] can know the thoughts of all beings." (R. Spence Hardy, The Legends and Theories of the Buddhists Compared with History and Science (London, 1866), p. 181.)
*"But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: `Why do you think evil in your hearts?' " (Matthew 9:4).16.After "healing" a man born blind, Buddha said: "The disease of this man originates in his sinful actions in former times." (Prof. Max Muller, ed., Sacred Books of the East (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1879--1910), vol. 21, p. 129f.)
*"As [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples said to him: `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' " (John 9:1--2).17.Both were itinerant preachers with a close group of trustees within a larger group of disciples. (James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Edinburgh T. & T. Clark, 1918), vol. 6, p. 883; Matthew 26:20.)
18.Both demanded that their disciples renounce all worldly possessions. (Hardy, Monachism, p. 6; Luke 14:33.)
*"The number of the disciples rapidly increased, and Gautama sent forth his monks on missionary tours hither and thither, bidding them wander everywhere, preaching the doctrine, and teaching men to order their lives with self--restraint, simplicity, and charity." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
*"And [Jesus] called to him the twelve [apostles], and began to send them out two by two.So they went out and preached that men should repent" (Mark 6:7, 12).19.Both had a disciple who "walked" on water:
*To convert skeptical villagers, Buddha showed them his disciple walking across a river without sinking. (Lillie, p. 140)
*"He said: `Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus, but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out: `Lord, save me!' " (Matthew 14:29--30).20."One day Ananda, the disciple of Buddha, after a long walk in the country, meets with Matangi, a woman of the low caste of the Kandalas, near a well, and asks her for some water. She tells him what she is, and that she must not come near him. But he replies: `My sister, I ask not for your caste or your family, I ask only for a drought of water. She afterwards became a disciple of Buddha." (Muller, Science, p. 243)
*"There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her: `Give me a drink.' For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him: `How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?' For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:7--9).21.Each repeated a question three times:
*"The Buddha next addressed the bhikkhus and requested them three times to ask him if they had any doubt or question that they wished clarified, but they all remained silent." (Encyclopedia Britannica (New York: William and Helen Benton, 1974), vol. 2, p. 373.)
*"[Jesus] said to him the third time: `Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time: `Do you love me?'" (John 21:17).22.Both received similar receptions:
*"The people swept the pathway, the gods strewed flowers on the pathway and branches of the coral tree, the men bore branches of all manner of trees, and the Bodhisattva Sumedha spread his garments in the mire, [and] men and gods shouted: `All hail.' " (Hardy, Legends, p.134)
*"And they brought the colt to Jesus, and threw their garments on it; and he sat on it. And many spread their garments on the road, and others spread leafy branches which they had cut from the fields" (Mark 11:7--8).23.Both had an archival:
*"[Buddha's] chief rival was Devadatta, a cousin of the Buddha, who is represented as being jealous of his influence and popularity, and as repeatedly seeking to compass his death." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883)
*"While [Jesus] was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying: `The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him!' And he came up to Jesus at once, and said: `Hail, Master!' And he kissed him" (Matthew 26:47--49).24.Before his death, Buddha said to his disciple: "Ananda, when I am gone, you must not think there is no Buddha; the discourses I have delivered, and the precepts I have enjoined, must be my successors, or representatives, and be to you as Buddha." (Hardy, Eastern Monachism (London, 1860), p. 230.)
*Before his "ascension," Jesus said to his disciples: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:19--20).25.When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.)
*When Jesus died: "And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the L--rd descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone, and sat upon it" (Matthew 28:2).26."In the year 217 B.C. Buddhist missionaries were imprisoned for preaching; but an angel, genie or spirit came and opened the prison door, and liberated them." (Thomas Thornton, A History of China from the Earliest Records to the Treaty with Great Britain in 1842 (London, 1844), vol. 1, p. 341.)
*"They arrested the apostles and put them in the common prison. But at night an angel of the L--rd opened the prison doors and brought them out" (Acts 5:18--19).27.Both men's disciples are said to have been miracle workers. (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas Through Successive Ages (New York, 1855)vol. 1, p. 229, Acts 3:6--8.)
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Now for the comparisons between Krishan and Jesus1.Both were preceded by a "forerunner" born a short time before them (Maurice, Hindostan, vol. 2, p. 316; Luke 1:57.).
2.Each was born in a city away from home where his father was on tax business (H. H. Wilson, trans., The Vishnu Purana, A System of Hindoo Mythology and Tradition (London, 1840), book 5, chap. 3; Luke 2:1-7).
3.Krishna was born in a cave (Cox, vol. 2,p. 107).
Jesus was born in a stable (Luke 2:7). However, Quintus Tertullian (third century), St Jerome (fourth century), and other Church fathers claimed that Jesus, too, was born in a cave (Godfred Higgins, Anacalypsis: An Enquiry into the Origin of Languages, Nations and Religions (London, 1836), vol. 2, pp. 98-99).
Frederick W. Farrar, Nineteenth-Century Canon: That the actual place of Jesus' birth was a cave is a very ancient tradition, and this cave used to be shown as the scene of the event even so early as the time of Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) (Farrar, The Life of Christ (New York, 1876), p. 38).
4.In infancy, both Krishna and Jesus were sentenced to death by kings who viewed them as pretenders to the throne. Due to this threat:
Krishna's father was warned by a heavenly voice "to fly with the child to Gacool, across the river Jumna (Mons Dupuis, trans., The Origin of All Religious Worship (New Orleans, 1872), p. 134).
Jesus' father was warned in a dream, "...rise and take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt..." (Matthew 2:13).
5.One of these kings then ordered "the massacre in all his states of all the children of the male sex during the night of the birth of Crishna" (J. Swain, Asiatic Researches, vol. 1, London, 1801. p. 259).
The other, Herod, "...sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem, and in all that region, who were two years old or under..." (Matthew 2:16).
6.One of both Krishna and Jesus' first "miracles" performed as adults was the curing of a leper (Thomas Maurice, History of Hindostan (London, 1798), vol. 2, p. 319; Matthew 8:2-4).
7.Urged by Krishna to make a request, a man replied: " 'Above all things, I desire to have my two dead sons restored to life.' Immediately they were brought to life and came to their father" (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas through Successive Ages (New York, 1855), vol. 1, p. 68).
"While [Jesus] was thus speaking to them, behold, a ruler came in and knelt before him, saying: 'My daughter has just died; but come and lay your hand on her, and she will live....' But when the crowd had been put aside, he went in and took her by the hand, and the girl arose" (Matthew 9:18, 25).
8.Either a poor cripple or a lame woman came with "a vessel filled with spices, sweet scented oils, sandalwood, saffron, civet, and other perfumes, and made a certain sign on [Krishna's] forehead, casting the rest upon his head" (Maurice, Hindostan, vol. 2, p. 320).
"Now when Jesus was at Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster box of very expensive ointment, and she poured it on his head, as he sat at the table" (Matthew 26:6-7).
9.Both washed the feet of their disciples (Maurice, Indian Antiquities (London, 1794), vol. 3, p. 46; John 13:5).
10.Both had a beloved disciple (Charles Wilkes, trans., The Bhagavat Gita, or Dialogues of Crishna and Arjoon, in Eighteen Lectures With Notes (London, 1785), p. 51; John 13:23).
11.Krishna said: "Let him, if seeking God by deep abstraction, abandon his possessions and his hopes, betake himself to some secluded spot, and fix his heart and thoughts on God alone" (Williams, Hinduism (London, 1877), p. 211).
Jesus said: "But when you pray, go into your room and close the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you" (Matthew 6:6).
12.Krishna said: "I am the light in the sun and the moon, far, far beyond the darkness. I am the brilliancy in flame, the radiance in all that's radiant, and the light of lights" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life" (John 8:12).
13.Krishna said: "I am the sustainer of the world, its friend and Lord. I am its way and refuge" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).
14.Krishna said: "I am the Goodness of the good; I am Beginning, Middle, End, Eternal Time, the Birth, the Death of all" (Ibid., p. 213).
Jesus said: "Fear not, I am the first, and the last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hell" (Revelations 1:17,18).
15.Both "descended" to hell (Swain, Vol. 1. P. 237; I Peter 3:9).
16.Both "ascended" to heaven before witnesses (Higgins., p. 131; Acts 1:9).
17.Both are said to have been God incarnate:
"Crishna is the very Supreme Brahma, though it be a mystery how the Supreme should assume the form of a man" (Wilson, p. 492).
"Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion; He manifested in the flesh..." (I Timothy 3:16).
18.Before death, Krishna was pierced with an arrows (Higgins, vol. 1, p. 144), and Jesus with a spear (John 19:34).
19.Both were crucified:
John P. Lundy, Nineteenth-Century Reverend: "I object to the crucifix because it is an image, and liable to gross abuse, just as the old Hindoo crucifix was an idol" (Lundy, p. 128).
Thomas Inman, Nineteenth Century Physician: "Crishna, whose history so closely resembles our Lord's, was also like him in his being crucified" (Inman, Ancient Faiths and Modern (London, 1868), p. 411).
20.When Krishna died, it is said that a black circle surrounded the moon, the sun was darkened at noon, the sky rained fire and ashes, and spirits were seen everywhere (Child, vol. 1, p. 71).
When Jesus died, the sun was darkened from the sixth to the ninth hour, graves were opened, and saints rose and entered the city (Matthew 27:45, 51-52).
21.Both were "resurrected" (Dupuis, p. 240; Matthew 28:6).
22."Krishna will return in the end days as an armed warrior, riding on a winged white horse. He will destroy the wicked then living. The sun and the moon will be darkened, the earth will tremble, and the stars will fall" (Chad ,vol. 1,p.75; Williams, Hinduism, p. 108).
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days [following Jesus' "return"] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken" (Matthew 24:29).
---------------------------------------Just something to think about in regard to myths.
Dave
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hooberus
Was Krishna crucified? Even the atheistic infidels site has this to say about Graves "Sixteen Crucified Saviors" book
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/graves.html
All this is not to say Graves didn't have some things right. But you will never be able to tell what he has right from what he has wrong without totally redoing all his research and beyond, which makes him utterly useless to historians as a source. For example, almost all his sources on Krishna long postdate Christian-Nestorian influence on India. No pre-Christian texts on Krishna contain the details crucial to his case, apart from those few that were common among many gods everywhere. Can you tell from Graves which details are attested by early evidence, and which by late? That's a problem.
http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1994/3/3hare94.html
In fairness, however, one purported similarity needs to be discredited. Skeptics sometimes cite Kersey Graves in Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Godfrey Higgin's Anacalypsis (which Graves drew from) in asserting that Krishna was a crucified deity. No such event occurred in the Gita or in any recognized Hindu scripture. Given the pronounced syncretic tendency of Hinduism, it is safe to assume that any odd tales of Krishna's being crucified arose only after the existence of Christian proselytism, in imitation of the Christian narrative. It is neither authentic to Hinduism nor is Hinduism the source of that portion of the Christian narrative. The same may be said for most of the purported nativity stories. In my opinion, both Higgins and Graves are highly unreliable sources and should be ignored.
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BluesBrother
Just a further thought, We are all aware of the similarities of "Christendom" and the older pagan religions. Anyone who was a dub in the 1960's / 1970's was indoctrinated with the stuff from the "BabylonBook" which drew heavily on "The Two Babylons" by Rev Hislop. So some of this is not new.
We were not told at the time that the older religions contained similarities not only in details of procedures but the core teachings about the life and activities of the central charecter
Blues, who is still not rushing to judgement and will test all this very carefully.
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seven006
Well, hooberus, since you say so I guess I'll disregard anything I have ever read in my life and go by your personal opinion.
Thanks for making my life so simple. Now, will you help me with my current project? All this math stuff can be so confusing.
Since I didn't live back then I can't say anything is absolute or not, neither can anyone else. I simply try to separate logic from fairy tail. My personal opinion is all religions have about as much logical substance as Mother Goose. I don't mean to be rude but what ever belief system wakes you up in the morning and puts a smile on your face and you can come to the realization that it is personal opinion instead of absolute fact, it is just dandy by me.
Have a nice day.
Dave
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hooberus
peacefulpete said:
I like the statement that "there are about a half dozen depictions of the crucified Jesus dated between the second and fifth centuries", then say, "even if this were not so". Actually there are not any christian depictions or crucufictions prior to the 5th century,(some contend that one or two Dionysian icons are really Christian) but this is irrelevent as prechristian use of the cross, chi rho or tree as instrument of death of godman is well established.
Can you please provide some evidence for this claim?
peaceful pete said: To say that the authors were being deceptive in their choice of artwork is slanderous to me. They never said that the cover illustration was prechristian nor implied it. In fact the book speaks about the AD developements of the cult iconography.
I don't believe that the tektonics site said that the authors of "the Jesus Mysteries" were being "deceptive" by their cover illustration.
I made comments to the effect that the "Pagan Origins" site by not giving the date was being potentially mis-leading. Many people upon reading the caption below the (below) figure would probably assume that the figure dated to before the crucifixion of Christ (instead of several hundred years later).
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peacefulpete
Yes, I misread your post. Your contention was with the amateur Origins website's sloppy condensing of the subject. A site I have previously cautioned about it's haphazard manner. And yes everyone who has studied this subject knows the 16 cucified saviors book has errors or at least unwarrented asumptions. As to Krishna his death in all legends is associated with a tree. In some he is stuck to it with arrows, in others he dies at the base of it. It is exaggerating to call this a crucifiction in all but a metaphoric sense.
Before I forget, Freke and Gandy captioned the above picture as a 3rd century ring seal amulet and discuss the illustration on page 52.
I have no need to demonstrate the use of the tree,cross and Chi rho in prechristian use for your have already conceeded it in your earlier post. Anyone who really wanted this information would google for a few minutes. -
hooberus
I have no need to demonstrate the use of the tree,cross and Chi rho in prechristian use for your have already conceeded it in your earlier post. Anyone who really wanted this information would google for a few minutes.
Trees,crosses, etc. pre-date Christianity according to encyclopedias, etc. However you stated: ". . . prechristian use of the cross, chi rho or tree as instrument of death of godman is well established."
What pre-christain evidence do you have for pre-christian cross, tree, etc, "as instrument of death of godman" do you have?
In some instances there was a tree present, but it doesn't really seem to be the instrument of death. It seems that in these cases that it is a regular forrest tree with leaves etc, substantiallty different from a cross.
Krishna was shot in one foot by a hunters arrow under a tree, but thats hardly a crucifixion. You referred to some legends in which he is stuck to a tree. It would be interesting to know the date of these legends.
Attis castrated himself under a pine tree, or after castrating himself turns into a pine tree, etc. but I don't think that this is really close to crucifixion.
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peacefulpete
We danced this dance before and you ignored all evidence of trees and crosses associated with the death of prechristian Gods before, why would i do more for you now? (Search function at my home does not work) Go back and reread the earlier threads. And better yet do your own research. The Chi Rho (and related Chi Alpha) is the only thing I think we have not discussed at length. It is a well known solar symbol depicting the death of the solar god. It was on coinage third century BC before Constantine (six hungdred years later) adopted it as a symbol of Jesus claiming the letter X stood for Christ and Rho (p/r) stood for King. Syncretism at it's most obvious.
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Country_Woman
A remarking resemblance which I did'nt hear before.
Osiris - as far as I found was:
(Usire)
Egyptian god of the underworld and of vegetation. Son of Nut and Geb. His birthplace was said to be Rosetau in the necropolis west of Memphis. Brother of Nephthys and Seth, and the brother and husband of Isis. Isis gave birth to Horus after his death, having impregnated herself with semen from his corpse. Osiris was depicted in human form wrapped up as a mummy, holding the crook and flail. He was often depicted with green skin, alluding to his role as a god of vegetation. He wore a crown known as the 'atef', composed of the tall conical white crown of Upper Egypt with red plumes on each side. Osiris had many cult centers, but the most important were at Abydos (Ibdju) in Upper Egypt, where the god's legend was reenacted in an annual festival, and at Busiris (Djedu) in the Nile delta.
One of the so-called "dying gods", he was the focus of a famous legend in which he was killed by the rival god Seth. At a banquet of the gods, Seth fooled Osiris into stepping into a coffin, which he promptly slammed shut and cast into the Nile. The coffin was born by the Nile to the delta town of Byblos, where it became enclosed in a tamarisk tree. Isis, the wife of Osiris, discovered the coffin and brought it back. (The story to this point is attested only by the Greek writer Plutarch, although Seth was identified as his murderer as early as the Pyramid era of the Old Kingdom.)
Seth took advantage of Isis's temporary absence on one occasion, cut the body to pieces, and cast them into the Nile. (In the Egyptian texts this incident alone accounts for the murder of Osiris.) Isis searched the land for the body parts of Osiris, and was eventually able to piece together his body, whole save for the penis, which had been swallowed by a crocodile (according to Plutarch) or a fish (according to Egyptian texts). In some Egyptian texts, the penis is buried at Memphis. Isis replaced the penis with a reasonable facsimile, and she was often portrayed in the form of a kite being impregnated by the ithyphallic corpse of Osiris. In some Egyptian texts, the scattering of the body parts is likened to the scattering of grain in the fields, a reference to Osiris's role as a vegetation god. 'Osiris gardens' - wood-framed barley seedbeds in the shape of the god, were sometimes placed in tombs - and the plants which sprouted from these beds symbolized the resurrection of life after death.
It was this legend that accounted for Osiris's role as a god of the dead and ruler of the Egyptian underworld. He was associated with funerary rituals, at first only with those of the Egyptian monarch, later with those of the populace in general. The pharaoh was believed to become Osiris after his death. Although he was regarded as a guarantor of continued existence in the afterlife, Osiris also had a darker, demonic aspect associated with the physiological processes of death and decay, and reflecting the fear Egyptians had of death in spite of their belief in an afterlife. Osiris was also a judge of the dead, referred to as the 'lord of Maat' (i.e. of divine law).
Legendary ruler of predynastic Egypt and god of the underworld. Osiris symbolized the creative forces of nature and the imperishability of life. Called the great benefactor of humanity, he brought to the people knowledge of agriculture and civilization. The worship of Osiris, one of the great cults of ancient Egypt, gradually spread throughout the Mediterranean world and, with that of Isis and Horus, was especially vital during the Roman Empire.
http://sobek.colorado.edu/LAB/GODS/osiris.html