Osiris-Dionysus

by yxl1 43 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  hooberus

  peacefulpete said: We danced this dance before and you ignored all evidence of trees and crosses associated with the death of prechristian Gods before, why would i do more for you now? (Search function at my home does not work) Go back and reread the earlier threads. And better yet do your own research. The Chi Rho (and related Chi Alpha) is the only thing I think we have not discussed at length. It is a well known solar symbol depicting the death of the solar god. It was on coinage third century BC before Constantine (six hungdred years later) adopted it as a symbol of Jesus claiming the letter X stood for Christ and Rho (p/r) stood for King. Syncretism at it's most obvious.

  Here is a pervious discussion that we had on the subject of prechristian Gods having trees and crosses associated with their deaths:
  

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/52167/2.ashx

  There you stated:

  "As to the the tree element(symbolizing life) included in a number of these mythical deaths.(dying under a tree, stuck to a tree with arrows, bleeding to death under a tree,hung in tree etc.) The Tammuz/Innana story has recently become better understood. Formerly the crucifixion/resurrection was ascribed to Tammuz (whose standard was the cross)due to partial texts and now it appears it actually was his lover godess Innana. This can be learned at the infidels site as well. "

  You comments seemed to refer to Attis, Krishna, Inanna, and Tammuz. Is this correct?
• 

  peacefulpete

  Trees figure in dozens of myths as the site of death or having been hung upon it. To the list you already stated add Odin,Prometheus,Mithra,Zoroaster and Tantalus who all had legends of being hung in trees. (trees representing fertility and life, e.g. Tree of life in Hebrew/Persian mythology and palm and pomegranate icons in Jewish temple) Ixion/ was crucified on a cross within a solar disc. He was symbolized as dove or a man. Jesus was likewise depicted as impaled within a solar disc. The cross shape is itself derived from solar charts depicting the equinox. This is why many solar deities are represented with or as a cross. The Krishna being affixed to the tree is in the Vishnu Purana (first/second century CE). Alternately he died under the tree with his legs crossed. It is unfortunate that the author at the infidels site spoke assertively about the post christian origins of the Hindu Krishna on a cross icongraphy, as the cross itself was used by Hindus for centuries prior to Christianity. He was drawing a conclusion not held by all no doubt to be as conservative as possible. This element being one of many commonalities such as the forgiving of his killer, the salvation and forgiveness of sins of men resulting, the subsequent ascension to reunite with the Godhead, etc....
  
  
  Again it is worth repeating that it is not simple copycatting of legends being discussed. It is myth evolution. The Jesus story, like each before, has original twists and turns. Details derived from current history and politics became incorporated with the broader theme of Divine salvation thru sacrifice often thru the instrumentality of a godman. All the thematic elements of the Jesus story had precidents yet the tale was fresh and appealing due to it's original use of myth and history. This was posted before in the Greatest story ever sold thread. It does not seem to be working so I repeat myself here now.
  
  Minucius Felix (2nd century christian) said to Pagan detractors: "Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as part of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses guiled and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it."
• 

  peacefulpete

  Besides Jesus wasn't crucified. According to Irenaeus quoting Polycarp Jesus escaped and lived to his 50's. Truth be told he's still alive and well in the south of France, visits the beaches from time to time. They know it's him from his long seemless onepiece.
• 

  hooberus

  Besides Jesus wasn't crucified. According to Irenaeus quoting Polycarp Jesus escaped and lived to his 50's.

  Irenaeus taught that Christ was crucified. The passage regarding the age of Jesus on the earth in question (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 2:22:4-6) I don't believe was a quote of polycarp. Against Heresies Book 2 http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-59.htm#P6719_1628705
• 

  hooberus

  Justin Martyr (147 AD) was not aware of crucifed pagan god-men.
  

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

  Chapter LV.-Symbols of the Cross.

  But in no instance, not even in any of those called sons of Jupiter, did they imitate the being crucified; for it was not understood by them, all the things said of it having been put symbolically. And this, as the prophet foretold, is the greatest symbol of His power and role; as is also proved by the things which fall under our observation. For consider all the things in the world, whether without this form they could be administered or have any community. For the sea is not traversed except that trophy which is called a sail abide safe in the ship; and the earth is not ploughed without it: diggers and mechanics do not their work, except with tools which have this shape. And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. And so it was said by the prophet, "The breath before our face is the Lord Christ." 118 And the power of this form is shown by your own symbols on what are called "vexilla" [banners] and trophies, with which all your state possessions are made, using these as the insignia of your power and government, even though you do so unwittingly. 119 And with this form you consecrate the images of your emperors when they die, and you name them gods by inscriptions. Since, therefore, we have urged you both by reason and by an evident form, and to the utmost of our ability, we know that now we are blameless even though you disbelieve; for our part is done and finished.

  peacefulpete said:

  Minucius Felix (2nd century christian) said to Pagan detractors: "Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as part of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses guiled and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it."

  There appears to be a dispute of the time of writing of Minucius Felix, however he wrote after Justin Martyr (147AD vs. 166 AD to greater than 205 AD).

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-04/anf04-33.htm#P5506_800247
• 

  hooberus

  peacefulpete said:
  

  Trees figure in dozens of myths as the site of death or having been hung upon it. To the list you already stated add Odin,Prometheus,Mithra,Zoroaster and Tantalus who all had legends of being hung in trees.

  It would be interested to know the exact accounts of these legends as well as their date. Do you have a pre-christian Mithras "death tree" or "hung on tree" legend?
  

  The Krishna being affixed to the tree is in the Vishnu Purana (first/second century CE).

  Is the Krishna account in a Purana or in the Bhagavadgita?

  Wasn't Krishna hung upon a forrest like tree after his death? Deuteronomy was written many centuries (at least seventh century CE) before the above date you specified. Perhaps the followers of Krishna borrowed from Deuteronomy.

  "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." Deuteronomy 21:22-23
  

  Alternately he died under the tree with his legs crossed.

  Is there any pre-christain scripture or drawings of this? I have read that he may have been practicing yoga at the time, which would explain the legs being crossed.
• 

  peacefulpete

  www.depts.drew.edu/jhc/RaskinCrucified.pdf
• 

  hooberus

  I am unable to open the link, could you post the arcticle?
• 

  hooberus

  The author of the arcticle posted by peacefulpete seems to be proposing a theory that the crucifixion in the New testamnent was not that of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate in 32AD but instead that of a man named "Simon" was crucified in the year 47. and that it was this mans crucifixion which was applied somehow to Jesus.
  

  "I conclude there was a widespread belief in the late second and early third century in orthodox Churches that Jesus Christ died around the year 47." (p. 5.)

  The earliest sources place the crucifixion of Jesus Christ around the year 32 AD. The Author uses relatively late sources such as interpretations of Irenaeus and Tertullian fo the AD 47 date.

  "Seutonius wrote probably five years before Tacitus in his Annals first points to the death of Christ under Pontius Pilate. This may indicate that the Pontius Pilate tradition is actually later than the understanding that Christ died circa 47." (p. 6)

  The teaching of crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is early and diverse. Much earlier than the sources which the authour interprets as giving an AD 47 date.

  "Luke's Pauline material only knows the general idea that Jesus died under Pontius Pilate. I assume this rumor/myth came after Seutonius' writing of Lives in 110 CE, which makes no mention of Pilate, and before the Time of Tacitus' Annals in 115 CE." (p.8.)

  The crucifixion under Pontius Pilate is not a rumor/myth but a historical fact. The evidence for it shows that it was an early fact well before the 110 AD date. Igantius (AD 70-110) wrote of Christ being crucified under Pilate as well as quoted from several bible books.

  Ignatius (A.D. 70-110) quoted from: Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Collossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, James, and 1 Peter The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict p. 44

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-18.htm#P1604_276864
  

  Chapter IX.-Reference to the History of Christ.

  Stop your ears, therefore, when any one speaks to you at variance with 60 Jesus Christ, who was descended from David, and was also of Mary; who was truly born, and did eat and drink. He was truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate; He was truly crucified, and [truly] died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. He was also truly raised from the dead, His Father quickening Him, even as after the same manner His Father will so raise up us who believe in Him by Christ Jesus, apart from whom we do not possess the true life.
• 

  hooberus

  the following gives some additional references: Jesus and Pilate

  • Paul believed that Jesus was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts chapter 13:28 (Paul's sermon recorded by Church historian Luke). 1 Timothy 6:13

  • Peter belived that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts Chapter 3:13; 4:27 (Peter's sermon's recorded by Church historian Luke.)

  • Matthew believed that jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person Matthew Chapter 27

  • Mark (who is said received his gospel from Peter) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucifed under Pilate a historical person. Mark chapter 15

  • John believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. John chapter 19

  
  

  • The church historian Luke believed that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Luke 3:1 Luke Chapter 23

  • Jewish historian Josephus recorded that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person (some dispute this reference, though the below part is commonly accepted).

  "and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;"

  • Roman Historian Tacitus (Ad 115 Annals 15.44. ) believed that Jesus Christ was a historical Person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person.

  "But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."
  

  • Justin Martyr (147 A.D.) appealed to a document apparenty extant in his day called the "Acts of Pontius Pilate" as a historical reference for the fact of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ by Pontius Pilate. http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

  The First Apology of Justin

  Chapter XXXV.-Other Fulfilled Prophecies.

  And the expression, "They pierced my hands and my feet," was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after He was crucified they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate. 71

  71 aktwn . These Acts of Pontius Pilate, or regular accounts of his procedure sent by Pilate to the Emporer Tiberius, are supposed to have been destroyed at an early period, possibly in consequence of the unanswerable appeals which the Christians constantly made to them. There exists a forgery in imitation of these Acts. See Trollope. The above witnesses are all early (most first century) or refer to early documents. The witnesses are numerous and come from multiple sources. These witnesses are consistent with each other as well as the Roman manner of crucifixion. The historical evidence is that Jesus Christ was crucified under Pontius Pilate.

  • Further evidence for the historicity of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ by the Romans is the fact that his crucifixion almost exactly followed the Roman manner of crucifixion

  Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762

  "There were various methods of performing the execution. Usually, the condemned man, after being whipped, or "scourged," dragged the crossbeam of his cross to the place of punishment, where the upright shaft was already fixed in the ground. Stripped of his clothing either then or earlier at his scourging, he was bound fast with outstrectched arms to the crossbeam or nailed firmly to it through the wrists. The crossbeam was then raised high against the upright shaft and made fast to it about 9 to 12 feet (approximately 3 metres) from the ground. Next, the feet were tightly bound or nailed to the upright shaft. A ledge inserted about halfway up the upright shaft gave some support to the body; evidence for a similar ledge for the feet is rare and late. Over the criminal's head was placed a notice stating his name and his crime. Death, apparently caused bu exhaustion or by heart failure, could be hastened by shattering the legs (crurifragium) with an iron club, so that shock and asphyxiation soon nded his life."

  The same arcticle later says:

  "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion."