A New View of the Trinity

by Eugene Shubert 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Eugene Shubert
    Eugene Shubert

    For everyone's convenience, I've summarized my synthesis into a short number of postulates. Please tell me which of my propositions are provably false and therefore Biblically inadmissible.

    The Godhead is a heavenly trio of three living persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19, 3:13-17, 2 Corinthians 13:14, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Peter 1:2 and Revelation 1:4,5).

    • The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.
    • The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested (Colossians 2:9 cf. John 1:1). He is the express image of His Father (Hebrews 1:3 cf. Colossians 1:15).
    • The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son (Romans 8:9). This is an enlightening and sanctifying power. It is a distinct Person, a free, working, independent agency (John 14:16-17, 15:26, 16:13-15). The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead.

    The Scriptures teach that there is but one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6-7).

    In Scripture, the word God is always a reference to a singular being and never means the Trinity.

    Individually, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of infinite rank. Mathematically, infinities come in different sizes.

    In Scripture, the Father is preeminent (1 Corinthians 15:24, 1 Timothy 1:17). There are a huge number of Bible verses that say that the Father is God. (Consider the challenge of reading my short list). There are a few verses that say that Jesus is God and there are very few verses that say that the Spirit is God.

    Please consider all the evidence for my synthesis. Philippians 2:6 is a wonderful confirmation.

    The NASB offers this translation:

    who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped

    The NIV is similar. A very literal translation is:

    who, being in the form of God, thought not robbery to be equal to God

    The meaning of Philippians 2:6 depends on understanding two things: the phrase "the form of God" and the Greek word harpagmos (translated, robbery).

    The word form is morphe (pronounced mor-fay'). In this instance, Scripture gives us the definition. (I'm presupposing that the meaning of words and usage according to Scripture, in context, determines doctrine and that our own doctrine and interpretation does not decree the meaning of words).

    The word rendered form \~morfh\~ morphe, occurs only in three places in the New Testament, and in each place is rendered form, Mark 16:12; Philippians 2:6,7. In Mark it is applied to the form which Jesus assumed after his resurrection, and in which he appeared to two of his disciples on his way to Emmaus. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them." This "form" was so unlike his usual appearance, that they did not know him. The word properly means 1. the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; 2. external appearance. You agree with this for Mark 16:12 and Philippians 2:7. The word form does not suggest that the appearance is the true revelation of the object itself. The form merely participates in the reality.

    Consider my thesis again. A divine and infinite Being can have the form of God and have all the essential qualities of Deity and yet not be God. The Septuagint makes use of the term morphe in such passages as Judges 8:18, where it describes Gideon's brothers as having the "form" of princes. Or in Isaiah 44:13 where the craftsman is described as making idols in the "form" of a man. Clearly, an idol in the "form" of a man is not equally great as a man. True exegesis reaches this irrefutable conclusion: "The form of something" refers to appearance, likeness and similarity. It is never a reference to exact equality.

    Now consider harpagmos. The basic idea of the word ([Greek: harpagmos] in Philp. 2:6) is that of seizing what one does not possess. ?F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1972, p. 109.

    The New English Bible makes use of both of these impressive summations in their translation of Philippians 2:6.

    "For the divine nature was his from the first; yet he did not think to snatch at equality with God" (Philippians 2:6, NEB).

    I offer an even better translation. "Christ, who was nearly God, did not think of grasping at equality with God."

    If you think about it, every Trinitarian translation of this verse that attempts to be literal is empty of content. See KJV and NKJV. It is nonsense to translate Philippians 2:6 to mean God didn't think it robbery to be equal to Himself.

  • gumby
    gumby

    If I were to answer from a biblical perspective, I still see it as the witnesses do. Take anyone who has never read the bible or been influenced concerning it......and see if a sane person can come to the idea that Jesus is god. As for his spirit.......it comes from the father.

    From my personal perspective....you could admit all of your choices into the bible since none of it came from god in the first place.

    Gumby

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Eugene Shubert,

    You said: The Godhead is a heavenly trio of three living persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

    False. Godhead is also translated as Deity in many translations. This is taken from several Greek words the true definition of which is elusive at best.

    You said: The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.

    False. The word Godhead or Deity is not restricted to the Father. I can be used of the Christ as well but is never used in scripture specifically of the holy spirit. The Father has always been invisible to mortal sight but this may not always be the case when mankind takes on immortality as promised in prophecy.

    You said: The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested (Colossians 2:9 cf. John 1:1). He is the express image of His Father (Hebrews 1:3 cf. Colossians 1:15).

    False. The Son is the expressed image of His person not the fullness of the Godhead as you state. He is therefore a separate Being in his own right as are all such non-human Sons of God. This word image includes features of the Son such as character, loyalty, purpose, and does not prove also that the appearance as if this Son contains the same physical attributes of the Father. For example: Such Sons of God have appeared to man in times past as did the Logos that became Christ. But of the Father it says: 1 Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    You said: The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father and the Son (Romans 8:9). This is an enlightening and sanctifying power. It is a distinct Person, a free, working, independent agency (John 14:16-17, 15:26, 16:13-15). The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead.

    False. The term Holy Spirit is a flexible expression that cannot be grasped like the wind. It must be interpreted carefully in whatever context it appears. The Spirit is never called Godhead or Deity in scripture.

    You said: The Scriptures teach that there is but one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6-7).

    In Scripture, the word God is always a reference to a singular being and never means the Trinity.

    Individually, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of infinite rank. Mathematically, infinities come in different sizes.

    False. The scriptures teach that there are many God?s, some of which are human such as Moses or Christ. The word God identifies no one specifically. Only when the context is analyzed do we discern who or what is meant. God simply stands for the one having authority over us such as a Governor or President.

    You said: In Scripture, the Father is preeminent (1 Corinthians 15:24, 1 Timothy 1:17). There are a huge number of Bible verses that say that the Father is God. (Consider the challenge of reading my short list). There are a few verses that say that Jesus is God and there are very few verses that say that the Spirit is God.

    False assumption. Use of the word God does not prove a single Being is involved. It can be used of anyone or anything presumed to have authority over us.

    Joseph

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Trinity is a harmony that attempts to integrate the various christologies of Jesus in the NT and bring them in line with the 'echad monotheism of the OT....it is not biblical in the sense that nowhere is it explicitly taught and the harmonization itself is a reflective creation of the early Church, constructed in reaction to other competing christologies that contradicted one scripture or another, but my personal belief is that it is the best harmonization of NT claims about Jesus I have seen. --Leolaia

  • Eugene Shubert
    Eugene Shubert

    Eugene Shubert,

    You said: The Godhead is a heavenly trio of three living persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

    False.

    Since the word Godhead doesn't appear in the Bible, I am free to select any ordinary dictionary definition for the word that I please. I choose the selection given. It agrees with ordinary dictionary definitions.

    See definition 2.a:

    http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Godhead

  • Eugene Shubert
    Eugene Shubert

    You said: The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight.

    False. The word Godhead or Deity is not restricted to the Father.

    I am using the word Godhead as previously defined. Didn't I promise to offer an alternative view of the Trinity?

    You said: The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested (Colossians 2:9 cf. John 1:1). He is the express image of His Father (Hebrews 1:3 cf. Colossians 1:15).

    False. The Son is the expressed image of His person not the fullness of the Godhead as you state.

    My thesis is that Christ is all the fullness of the Godhead that can be manifested to finite creatures. Prove me wrong.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Joseph,

    The Father has always been invisible to mortal sight but this may not always be the case when mankind takes on immortality as promised in prophecy.

    Gen 17:1,18:1,22,33. Ex 6:3,19:24,24:10, 33:11,Num 12:8, Isaiah 6:1-6 Acts 7:2

    He is therefore a separate Being in his own right

    What is he?

    False. The scriptures teach that there are many God?s, some of which are human such as Moses or Christ .

    Who's feet in Zechariah 14:4 will touch the mountain of the olive in Jerusalem, the same place where Jesus rose to heaven. (Mt Olive)

    And why in Zec 14:9 does Jehovah become king if he is already King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

    Zech 8:3 Jehovah says "I will return to Zion and reside in the midst of Jerusalem"

    9:9 "be joyful your king himself comes to you... ' riding on an ass"

    I believe there's more to consider than just disposing of the trinity. To me its easier to align the trinity persons than to dismantle them.

    my 2 pennys

  • archangel01
    archangel01

    The Holy Spirit is three Person of the Trinity.....Read Act cha. 5 for the Deity of the Holy Spirit (He is called God) vs4 and in vs 3 he can be lied too ,so in order to be lied too you have to be alive, Person, frame of Mind, etc etc Not a inactive force as the Cults teach. Acts Cha 5 vs 3,4 gets them everytime.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    The Father has always been invisible to mortal sight but this may not always be the case when mankind takes on immortality as promised in prophecy.

    Gen 17:1,18:1,22,33. Ex 6:3,19:24,24:10, 33:11,Num 12:8, Isaiah 6:1-6 Acts 7:2

    Elderwho,

    The scriptures that you provide do not constitute proof of any literal and visible sight as such messages were transmitted by means of angels and not the Father personally. In some cases this was clearly stated. However we learn in NT texts that: Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. The use of such mediators speaking as if they were YHWH himself is common in OT texts.

    He is therefore a separate Being in his own right

    What is he?

    The he referred to Christ. Christ is a separate Being that was known as the Logos in the beginning of mans creation (not the beginning of all creation as in Gen. 1:1). It is this Logos that created man personally. As to who created other things such as the animals the scriptures are silent. All things pertaining to humanity were made by the Logos but this expression All should be understood in the context given regarding the world of mankind to which he came and does not mean everything as some teach.

    False. The scriptures teach that there are many God?s, some of which are human such as Moses or Christ .

    You said: Who's feet in Zechariah 14:4 will touch the mountain of the olive in Jerusalem, the same place where Jesus rose to heaven. (Mt Olive)

    And why in Zec 14:9 does Jehovah become king if he is already King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

    Zech 8:3 Jehovah says "I will return to Zion and reside in the midst of Jerusalem"

    9:9 "be joyful your king himself comes to you... ' riding on an ass"

    I believe there's more to consider than just disposing of the trinity. To me its easier to align the trinity persons than to dismantle them.

    my 2 pennys

    This has already been explained above. In fact it is clear that our Lord fulfills such prophecies and is that mediator pictured by them. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; This mediator did not lose the right to humanity simply because he was executed and became a sacrifice for our sins. This Christ still exists as a man having earned such right and appeared as a man to his disciples after raising his own body from the tomb. In fact to teach anything else is antichrist according to John. The scriptures attest to the fact that this same Christ will return here to this earth as a man to raise the dead and rule in the promised kingdom. Christ now has a hypostasis nature, that of the Logos (raised by God as promised) and that of man (raised by the Logos as prophesied). It is the nature of man that the scriptures promise Christ will use when he returns to earth once again. Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    The trinity is not truth and is not supported by the texts period.

    Joseph

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Since the word Godhead doesn't appear in the Bible, I am free to select any ordinary dictionary definition for the word that I please. I choose the selection given. It agrees with ordinary dictionary definitions.

    Eugene Shubert,

    Dictionary definitions are not inspired texts. Therefore you provide no evidence for your views. It has already been shown that the term God can be applied to anyone real or imagined that has power over us. Use of words should not be confused with the realities you apply to them based upon dictionary definitions. Prove the reality first from the very texts themselves then you may have something to say about such application.

    Joseph

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